Investigating the Dim Mak Death Touch

179 responses so far ↓

• 1 BlacktotheFuture // Oct 12, 2006

  It was helpful…but a concrete verdict from the author would’ve been nice.

• 2 Chris // Oct 12, 2006

  From the article: “…it should be obvious that the skill of dim mak does exist…”

  What questions have gone unanswered?

• 3 N // Oct 19, 2006

  By this same logic since jumping is a means by which humans may influence their distance from the earth, then surely the ability to fly is no more improbable than the ability to jump one meter.

  Puhlease.

• 4 Chris // Oct 19, 2006

  It is rather like saying that if you can jump to the left, you should be able to jump to the right.

• 5 Ken // Nov 9, 2006

  Dim mak is real , My deceased grandfather (trained by a shaolin master) was good at it and even tried to pass down the training method and technique but the new generation (us) sure prefer TV or computer over those ancient deadly and boring martial arts.

  He could poke a hole in the botol and he knew at which spot and time(say 12Pm) one should strike at to be fully effective . But all thess knowledges are gone under the new generation. The time has changed .

• 6 mmabjj // Nov 28, 2006

  Dim Mak as a valid martial arts form is a load of old cobblers, I’m afraid.

  Sure, getting pressed, poked or jabbed in certain parts of the body can be very painful. But basing your system of self defence, or basing your combat skill, around this is just asking to lose every fight you are in.

  I can punch you in the jaw quicker than you can locate pressure point 17e at midnight on a Tuesday (if I have eaten brunch, if not–Wednesday)and grip it with your left fingernail whilst simultanously touching pressure point 12.5b under my left toenail.

• 7 Bobbo // Dec 4, 2006

  Dim Mak isn’t a soft tap, its a blunt strike to a spot on the chest that causes 2 inches of chest compression, broken ribs, and heart failure.

• 8 Richard C. Bauer // Dec 13, 2006

  Dim Mak is a legitimate subset of the chinese martial styles. Essentially, it is preceision striking, which takes advantage of anatomical weaknesses of the human physiology. Historically, It took ten years of hard study and practice in order to weild correctly. It was anything but easy.

  One of the many problems which exists today is the martial arts public has been innundated with less than authoritative material on this subject. This continues to lead to a number of repeated misconceptions on what is and is not Dim Mak.

  Arguably the first published reference in English occured in 1958, when James Yimm Lee published his books on Iron Hand training. Bruce Lee also made brief mention of it in his 1963 book on Gung Fu. And Ark Wong wrote a considerable amount on the topic in 1963 and 1968, in his books on Kung Fu. Since the 1970’s, there have been countless magazine articles and books on the subject… particularly in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. With all things in the media, some of this material was accurate, and some was not.

  From a research historian perspective, the subject appears in several original chinese works, which were published in the late 1800’s (particularly the book by Master Huo Tuo in 1878, and the book by GrandMaster Li Shi Zhe in 1881). The three proper sets of Dim Mak (aka, Dim Mak, Dim Hseuh and Dim Ching) also appear prominently in the Shorin Ryu Bubishi (circa the late 1700’s), which was published in the 1930s. Funakosh also mentions the subject in his published work in the 1920’s and 1930’s, and so did Motobu in his books of the same time period.

  Very Respectfully,

  R. Bauer

  co-author of THE ANCIENT ART OF LIFE AND DEATH: THE BOOK OF DIM MAK

• 9 Chris // Dec 13, 2006

  Richard, thank you for the historical info.

• 10 Richard C. Bauer // Dec 14, 2006

  Chris,

  Your welcome. The Seattle area is where I grew up, so I am always happy to help folks back home.

  All the best from the Gulf of Arabia,

  Rick

• 11 ETWolverine // Jan 2, 2007

  With all due respect to mmabjj, he is wrong.

  First of all, Dim Mak (or Kyusho-jutsu in the Okinawan version) is not only effective, but is much more effective as a defensive/offensive technique than a random punch to the jaw. Sure, if you are strong enough, you can knock an opponent out with a strike to the jaw… maybe. Obviously boxers, oriental martial artists and shoot fighters hit and get hit in the jaw all the time, but knockouts are actually pretty rare. Sure it could happen, but not all that often, and not reliably enough to end the fight with a single strike. However, with the pressure-point techniques of Dim Mak/Chin Na/Kyusho Jutsu, a knockout, or at least an end to the fight, is virtually guaranteed… every time… if the technique is executed properly.

  The idea behind pressure point fighting is that a strike to a single pressure point causes pain and a weakening of a limb or joint. A strike to two points causes the pain to be multiplied as well as to be referred to another spot on the body. Striking three points causes a knockout or extreme weakness, disorientation and inability to defend oneself from a follow-up strike (effectively ending the fight). Four points causes organ failure unless revitalization techniques are used to reverse the effect. Five points (and it has to be the correct five points in the correct order) causes death.

  Now, you are probably thinking: “How can I hit three different points reliably to cause a knockout faster than the opponent can counter me with a single blow?” The answer lies in the anatomy of the human body. For instance, the pressure points known as Lung 7, 8 & 9 are within an inch of each other, on the thumb side of the inner wrist. A single strike can activate all three pressure points, causing a drop in heart rate, blood pressure and overall dizzyness and disorientation… effectively a TKO, and a move that ends the opponent’s ability to attack you (which is the real goal, after all). A friend of mine actually did this by accident a few years back during a practice in which he caught his opponent’s L7, 8 & 9 during a deflection of an incoming punch. It wasn’t even intended as a strike, just a deflection.

  Another example is a cupped-hand strike over the eye. Properly executed, this can activate as many as 8 different pressure points (ST 1 & 2, LI 20, SI 18, UB 1 & 2, GB 1 & 14). There’s a video of this type of knockout being performed by David Rhodes available here: http://www.kyusho.com/davidrhodesKO1.wmv.

  “But isn’t this too hard for the average person to learn quickly” is the next obvious question. The answer is yes and no. The fact is that most martial artists are already learning these techniques… they just don’t know it. As George Dillman explains, the techniques are already in the regular kata and bunkai performed by every martial artist from child to adult. They just haven’t been taught to recognize it as such. They are taught that the movements of kata have meanings that are simplistic at best, and downright rediculous and ineffective at worst. But when taught in the context of pressure-point fighting, they make perfect sense.

  For instance, why would anyone use the weakest part of the arm to block a kick, as is commonly taught in every martial arts school as the “lower block”. Chances are that your arm will break before you can stop a full-powered kick. But if the same “lower block” movement is used to attack pressure points on an opponent’s attacking arm, such as Lung 5 or Heart 3, the movement begins to make sense and become effective. Taught in that context, it is clear that every moderately capable martial artist has the movements down pat. What he needs to learn is the real meaning behind the movements he was taught. This means an entirely new way of thinking about the movements of your fighting style. But the locations and directions of the major striking points aren’t that hard to learn… I picked up quite a bit of it in a few weeks, enough to make it an effective system for using what I already knew in real combat situations. It is no slower and often faster than the punch to the jaw that is advocated by mmabjj, and ALWAYS more effective.

• 12 Dustin // Jan 3, 2007

  It is truly a shame that a viable martial art subset has been cast aside by modern society as voo-doo. I have performed several strikes explained and demonstrated to me by my fathers ishin-ryu sensei. Not only are they incredibly effective but they are relatively easy to learn and execute. It is my understanding that the necessity of time of day and other such restrictions (minus angle and force) were essentially mental exercises. These lessons were intended to bring a greater level of discipline to students in dim mak. I have performed the same strikes at various times of day with ultimately the exact same results. Too often people cast aside what they do not understand or do not wish to understand as nonsense. Someday you may be forced into a fight with someone not afraid to learn these techniques and when you are on the ground wondering what happened maybe you will make an attempt to understand rather than put down a very effective fighting style.
  Also, Ken, I mean no disrespect to you or your grandfather but poking a hole in a bottle does not necessarily mean he was practicing dim mak. I was capable of doing the same thing through training in qigong. It is commonly known as iron palm, fist, grip, etc.
  To mmabjj. I suggest checking your sources and rather than focusing on time of day etc., focus on picking one combination of points you can easily locate. Practice being able to find those points and then use them on a training partner. Be sure to learn the counter measures to reverse the effects of your strike before doing so. If that doesn’t change your mind then I guess you are on your own.

• 13 Drunken Cobra // Jan 9, 2007

  Hello, I know about these facts and it’s 100% basic. In the structure of the human body we have points to where the tissue goes in, leaving points in the body fresh open to attaries. When you strike a pressure point it closes it and causes the pressure to counter back into there body. When they counter back into your body it allows effecting nerves to your brain from the blood flow to effect the whole part of the area. It can cause your muscles to be stunned, knockout, or death. If your a big fan of martial art movies, you hear about the “5 Points of Death”. In Dim Mak there is certain skills you can learn to target the nerve in the heart, the kidney, the bladder, liver and brain to cause a delayed death by the amount of pressure on the body. It takes years of studying the points and years to learn how to do it.

  Any questions add pure_punish@hotmail.com

• 14 Ric // Jan 10, 2007

  funny how none of this has been used in any kind of UFC tournament. let me guess, its too deadly! but as ETwolverine pointed out, you could use just 3 points for a TKO rather than 5 for a kill… hmm.

  let me share the secret of the ninja death touch with all of you. even though the ninja clans will hunt me down and kill me, i will add my 2 cents to shed some realistic light on the matter. tiny poisoned needles attached to fingernails!! oh my god it all makes sense now! slow acting poison for delayed death touch! anaesthetic for a knockout or limb numbing!

  apply occams razor here guys… what makes more sense- poisoned needles or an esoteric chi/meridian system. FYI acupuncture has never been shown to work in any scientific controlled double blind study. yes there is tons of empirical evidence and users who swear by it. i leave it at that.

• 15 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 12, 2007

  Back in the 1960s and 1970s, certain infamous comic book and pulp fiction versions of Dim Mak were produced and sold in the North American and European mass-market, which purported to teach “Dim Mak – The Death Touch.” These over-hyped versions were not factually accurate, and were designed to sensationalize and sell. In my humble opinion, this marketing trend… which was part of the pop culture phenomena of the times, helped turn the subject of Dim Mak into a morass. It was akin to learning Karate or Kung Fu from a tabloid.

  Dim Mak, as a legitimate historical subject, was an outgrowth of Chinese medicine and Chinese Gong Fu. The ancient doctors of the period witnessed the outcome of fights and battles, and thru empirical observation, recorded what they believed was the cause and effect outcomes of specific, focused trauma, applied to sensitive areas of the human body. As a matter of medical physiology and biomechanics, the body is not uniformly strong. It has areas which are more vulnerable to damage.

  The way in which trauma can be inflicted on a person’s body can vary significantly, and is directly dependent on the manner in which they are hit. The Old Chinese Masters, thru centuries of cause-and-effect observation, determined a specific number of ways of inflicting certain types of trauma to specific parts of the body. They divided this information into three distinct subsets… the most viscous of which they referred to as Dim Mak strikes.

  Biologically, the human body runs on regulated cycles. For example, the circulatory system was of particular interest to the Old Chinese Masters, as it followed a consistent, rhythmic pattern. This gave the Old Masters a timing mechanism, of sorts. For certain types of strikes targeting blood gates, they charted out the length of time it took from the moment of impact, when the arterial wall was severely traumatized, to when it ruptured. The Old Maters made records of these cause-and-effect patterns, originally to understand how to heal the condition. They then spent a considerable amount of research on the health and restoration techniques (such as herbology), which were necessary to heal the trauma. Feudal China was plagued with massive wars, and fighting was almost a routine part of life. Originally, the Old Chinese Masters begin the study of Dim Mak to understand how to try and heal a person, in the event a person in their care was struck and hurt in a fight, battle, war, etc.

  When the subject of Dim Mak begin to appear in Western literature in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, most of the cause and effect descriptions were very limited, and cloaked with eastern imagery (such as “Hit here, and the person will fall down like frightened chicken”)… which fueled pessimism in the West, and comparisons to Voodoo. Then a number of less-than-authoritative information was published, claiming to be “Dim-Mak.” It wasn’t. It was pure fiction. It wasn’t authoritative. It was not based on legitimate training or records. It was cattle manure. But in the swirl of concepts and pop culture, it became part of the urban legend. Regrettably, the legacy of that period of bad information continues to live with us, along with the gross misconceptions.

  Hope the above helps.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

• 16 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 14, 2007

  After reading thru the discussion thread, there are a couple of areas in Chris’ original article which I would respectfully offer some thoughts and comments:

  “The Cantonese term dim mak does not translate to death touch… “

  Linguistically, this is correct. But it is also fair to say that over the past 200+ years, the term “Death Touch” has become associated with the Asian practice of hitting vital points on the body.

  “I have heard that a less dramatic, but more accurate translation would be “press artery… ”

  “By definition, dim mak operates on arteries… “

  For the subset of Dim Mak strikes which target blood gates (Dim Hsueh), I would partially agree. But as a general statement, I would respectfully disagree. The subject of dim mak is much more complex than this. Dim Mak is not limited to just attacking arteries or blood gates. In the same way, it is much more complex than just attacking nerve centers or branches… which is another common theory. As a process, it would be better to characterize it as a systematized method of attacking anatomical weak centers of the body. And these attacks are all done with high precision and skill.

  Chinese lexemes can sometimes be very difficult to translate into English, and often times refer to a concept, image or process, and not an actual thing. In addition, their exact meaning is influenced by the order in which the brush-stroke characters appear in the sentence.

  Dim (Dian) (Tian) can translate by itself to: dot, speck, spot, point or degree

  Mak (Muk) (Mai) (Hsueh) can translate by itself to: blood vessels, veins or arteries

  The Mandarin term Xue can translate by itself to: cave, den, or hole

  In the simplist of translations, dim mak (dian xue) can refer to “spotting points” or “spotting acupoints”

  In the Chinese martial arts, the process of studying Dim Mak is often referred to in Mandarin as Dian Xue Shu: or the skill / art of spotting (striking / attacking / pressing) acupoints / vital points.

  On the recent translation of the Shao-lin Dim Mak book, Dian Xue Shu, which was originally published in China in 1934, the translators noted: “[This book is about the] method of acting on acupoints and their practical application in Martial Arts. DIAN XUE SHU… literally means “The Art of Touching Acupoints” [and is more commonly known] in the West as DIM MAK (“Blows to the Arteries” in Cantonese dialect) or “Death Touch.” It should be noted that the last two names do not fully reflect the essence of this method.”

  I would respectfully agree with the above assessment. The full concept of Dim Mak includes attacking arteries, but it is not limited to it. The old Masters always taught Dim Mak using references to traditional Chinese vital points / acupoints as targets. That is why you will often see teachers refer to the subject of Dim Mak as: “The skill in striking Vital Points” or “The Art of Attacking Acupoints” or “Acupoint / Meridian Pressing”… just to name a few.

  “According to TCM theory and practice as manifest in acupuncture, the body is covered with these arteries, also known as meridians… “

  I would respectfully disagree with this statement. The circulatory system plays a critical role in Chinese meridian theory, but arteries are not meridians. The Chinese Classics of Medicine are fond of saying “where the blood goes, chi flows…” but they always make a clear distinction between the circulatory system and the meridian / collateral system. They are different conceptual processes. Meridian theory is much more complex than this.

  Just my humble opinion.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

• 17 Chris // Jan 14, 2007

  I did indeed use “artery” to describe both blood arteries and chi “arteries”; I did not mean to imply they are the same and I apologize for any confusion. The points I intended to communicate are:
  1) Dim mak is not merely punching really hard to break bones and tear flesh.
  2) To accept acupuncture while dismissing dim mak is hypocritical.

• 18 Miguelshihto // Jan 15, 2007

  mmabjj, that was a little outrageous, you obviously don’t even comprehend the power this has to offer

• 19 mmabjj // Jan 15, 2007

  It’s very simple.

  I am correct.

  If you believe this stuff, deadly death touches, 5-point death knockouts, 3 point TKOs, you are delusional, in love with the idea of the martial arts (mysticism, ninjas, death touch, etc.) rather than the reality of martial arts (punches, kicks, submissions, and a lot of hard training.)

  ETWOlverine is clearly delusional. Apparently, pressure point TKOs are MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE than a punch to the jaw. This is despite the huge pile of empirical evidence to the contrary (people in boxing matches, MMA fights, and street fights are getting KO’d every minute of every day around the world), and the fact that the mysterious death touch mysteriously doesnt work when a master of said technique tries it on someone who is not from his school.

  You people are bullshido, the worst kind of delusional martial artist, with no real idea of what it means to be able to fight or to study martial arts.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN787VmJiL8
  There’s a video of a volunteer offering to be “dim-makked” by someone giving a seminar. Surprise surprise, it didn’t work. They were not his students.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI
  Here’s another video where the technique doesn’t work on someone who is not pre-brainwashed.

  Best of all, here is a master of not only the death touch, but no touch knockouts, entering a real, limited rules fight. And getting his nose smashed and giving up by one of those punches that Mr. Wolverine dismisses as ineffective.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQeUkUO5ZPo&eurl=

  People, for the love of humanity, wake up.

• 20 Chris // Jan 16, 2007

  You are free to discuss the technical merits of dim mak, or its lack of merits, in a civil fashion. No ad hominem attacks are allowed in my forum.

• 21 ETWolverine // Jan 17, 2007

  Ric,

  First of all, it HAS been used in UFC tournaments. Remember how many UFC fighters have been choked out? Those chokes are as much a part of pressure point fighting as what I have been talking about.

  Second of all, Ninja didn’t use dim mak. They used poisions. So you are right on that count. That doesn’t mean that OTHERS didn’t use dim mak. Each has its place in the martial sciences.

  Third, you said, “FYI acupuncture has never been shown to work in any scientific controlled double blind study. ” Hate to tell you this (no I don’t), but you are wrong. In a double blind study, the Chochrane Group found the following: “Thirty-five RCTs covering 2861 patients were included in this systematic review. There is insufficient evidence to make any recommendations about acupuncture or dry-needling for acute low-back pain. For chronic low-back pain, results show that acupuncture is more effective for pain relief than no treatment or sham treatment, in measurements taken up to three months. The results also show that for chronic low-back pain, acupuncture is more effective for improving function than no treatment, in the short-term. Acupuncture is not more effective than other conventional and “alternative” treatments. When acupuncture is added to other conventional therapies, it relieves pain and improves function better than the conventional therapies alone. However, effects are only small. Dry-needling appears to be a useful adjunct to other therapies for chronic low-back pain.” — The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews October 30. 2004

  A review by Manheimer et al. in Annals of Internal Medicine (2005) reached conclusions similar to Cochrane’s review on low back pain.

  For headache, Cochrane concluded (2006) that “(o)verall, the existing evidence supports the value of acupuncture for the treatment of idiopathic headaches.

  The Cochrane review (2006) on the use of the P6 acupoint for the reduction of post-operative nausea and vomiting concluded that “compared with anti emetic prophylaxis, P6 acupoint stimulation seems to reduce the risk of nausea but not vomiting”

  Bandolier said “P6 acupressure in two studies showed 52% of patients with control having a success, compared with 75% with P6 acupressure”(1999) and that one in five adults, but not children showed reduction in early postoperative nausea(2000).

  According to the National Institutes of Health: Preclinical studies have documented acupuncture’s effects, but they have not been able to fully explain how acupuncture works within the framework of the Western system of medicine that is commonly practiced in the United States.

  The NIH further stated: there is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy… There is reasonable evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain… reasonable studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia…

  Central Nervous Pathway for Acupuncture Stimulation: Localization of Processing with Functional MR Imaging of the Brain—Preliminary Experience: Ming-Ting Wu, MD, Jen-Chuen Hsieh, MD, PhD, Jing Xiong, MD, Chien-Fang Yang, MD, Huay-Ban Pan, MD, Yin-Ching Iris Chen, PhD, Guochuan Tsai, MD, PhD, Bruce R. Rosen, MD, PhD and Kenneth K. Kwong, PhD. “Acupuncture at LI.4 and ST.36 resulted in significantly higher scores for De-Qi and in substantial bradycardia. Acupuncture at both acupoints resulted in activation of the hypothalamus and nucleus accumbens and deactivation of the rostral part of the anterior cingulate cortex, amygdala formation, and hippocampal complex; control stimulations did not result in such activations and deactivations.”

  There is ample clinical evidence that SOMETHING biological is happening when accupuncture is used, whether we understand the mechanism of it or not.

  mmabjj,

  How many MMA fights end up going absolutely nowhere with no KOs, no submissions and time running out? How many boxing matches? How many UFC fights? What is the percentage of actual KOs to fights without KOs?

  I’ve seen these kyusho-jutsu techniques used. I’ve been on the receiving end of them… before I believed in them. I was a practitioner of the old “punching and kicking” type of martial arts that you are pushing, and I don’t deny their efficacy. I’m a brawler myself, when it comes down to it. But that doesn’t mean that the kyusho techniques don’t work.

  I can’t view the youtube videos you posted on my computer due to technical difficulties, so I can’t see what went wrong. But I cannot believe that a properly executed pressure-point attack had absolutely no effect whatsoever on the subject. Even a smack in the face or a finger jab in the ribs has an effect. So… what effect did it have?

  As for an MMA style fight, I’d love for you to see an MMA fighter try to “shoot” for the legs of a good kyusho practitioner, and see what happens. I’ve actually seen it. It was quite an interesting fight… all six seconds of it. Here’s a hint: CV 24, GV 24 & 25, GV 15, TW 15. Two strikes, he was out.

  Finally, what makes your disagreement with pressure-point fighting any different from the disagreement with any style of martial arts that used to exist in this country (and still does in some circles). Remember how street fighers and boxers used to look at Karate and Gung-Fu as mystic BS that could never work in real life? But it does work. What makes you think that THIS is any different? Sure it’s more complicated than what you are used to. But does that mean that it’s ineffective?

  And if someone is saying that there is a technique that is more effective than a punch in the jaw for producing klnockouts, don’t you think its worth a bit of direct investigation before you dismiss it out of hand based on your belief that it could never work? Why not try it before you deny it?

  Such hostility over techniques that are probably older than whatever you practice, and that obviously work for SOMEONE. Based on the fact that you have HEARD that it doesn’t work, without having checked it out for yourself.

• 22 ETWolverine // Jan 18, 2007

  mmabjj,

  I should make one more point.

  The Kyusho Jutsu techniques include a “punch to the jaw”. Kyusho just happens to teach the exact method, including direction, angle, and power with which to punch the opponent in the jaw for greatest effect. TW 17 is on the corner of the jaw, just behind the bone ridge and below the ear. TW 18-22 are around the ear. TW 23 is at the temple. CV 24 is in the center of the lower jaw. GV 26 is on the upper lip just below the nose. GV 25 is on the tip of the nose. LI 19 and LI 20 are at the corner of the mouth and the ridge of the cheekbone respectively. These are all the same spots that a “brawler” who just punches and kicks tries to aim for anyway.

  So basically, all those punch-to-the-jaw knockouts that you are so enamoured with all are associated with pressure-point attacks. The difference is that for you, they were an accident, just blind luck. You might have gotten a KO or you might not. For a Kyusho practitioner, they are done on purpose, with intent and proper technique, and thus more likely to result in a KO with more frequency.

  Elliot

• 23 oldman34 // Jan 19, 2007

  This is ridiculous. He chopped the guy in the ribs. Notice he didnt “touch” him. He hit him with some force. Any strike to the body cavity can be felt on the opposite side. Plus, the guy didnt fall over like the guys in white. Why not?

  Have a friend strike you in the ribs like that. I guarantee, you will feel it on the other side of your body.

  The best way to interrupt “chi flow” is to wrap your arms around their neck and squeeze. Its called a Rear Nake Choke. Works everytime. Doesnt matter what time of day, waht season, if they have their toungue in the top or bottom of their mouths. They are going to sleep.

  I leave you with these words of wisdom…

  Chi doesnt exist, Ninjas dont rule the night, and an elbow to the back is not the anti-grapple.

• 24 slideyfoot // Jan 19, 2007

  “But I cannot believe that a properly executed pressure-point attack had absolutely no effect whatsoever on the subject.”

  That would be exactly what happened – I’d recommend you find some way to view them before continuing the argument. Though I’m guessing your response may well be that the representatives in those videos were somehow inadequately skilled, and therefore incapable of giving dim mak a fair showing.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

  Having said that, I’d be very interested to see some evidence of this:

  “As for an MMA style fight, I’d love for you to see an MMA fighter try to “shoot” for the legs of a good kyusho practitioner, and see what happens. I’ve actually seen it. It was quite an interesting fight… all six seconds of it. Here’s a hint: CV 24, GV 24 & 25, GV 15, TW 15. Two strikes, he was out.”

  Do you have the name of the MMA fighter and some corroborating accounts of the incident?

• 25 ETWolverine // Jan 19, 2007

  Who has claimed that dim mak was merely touching the opponent? In every post I have made here I mentioned “striking” the target points. Different points respond best to different types of strikes, presses or rubs. TW12 is best activated by rubbing. H6 is best activated by pressing and torquing/twisting. L5 responds best to a hard, sharp strike. SI17 should be struck with a heavy blow. TW17 requires a strike at a 45 degree angle from back to front to work properly.

  I haven’t seen any accupoint that is simply “touched” for effect. If someone was claiming to simply be able to touch an opponent and knock him out, he was full of crap. It doesn’t exist.

  Furthermore, if you ever look at an accupuncture point chart, you will notice that the accupoints are exactly the same points that a typical puncher/kicker aims for anyway. The difference is that a kyusho fighter’s aim and angle of attack is better.

  I wish I could give you the name of the MMA fighter, but I don’t have it. The corroboration could come from some friends of mine who were there at the time, including a Kyusho instructor named Eric Lerner. But since he’s a Kyusho guy, his coroboration would be suspect.

  Finally, are you aware of the fact that a rear neck choke is a pressure-point technique? Not a strike, but a “press”. But a pressure-point technique, nonetheless. Please read again what I wrote above: “The fact is that most martial artists are already learning these techniques… they just don’t know it. As George Dillman explains, the techniques are already in the regular kata and bunkai performed by every martial artist from child to adult. They just haven’t been taught to recognize it as such. They are taught that the movements of kata have meanings that are simplistic at best, and downright rediculous and ineffective at worst. But when taught in the context of pressure-point fighting, they make perfect sense.” In other words, every martial artist worth his salt is already a pressure-point fighter… he just doesn’t know it yet.

• 26 ETWolverine // Jan 19, 2007

  One last point:

  In UFC 2, Keith Kackney defeated sumo Emanuel Yarborough, He did it with strikes to the head of Yarborough. And in doing so, Hackney broke his own hand. It was certainly a triumph of technique over size. But what good is a punch to the head if in doing so you break your own hand, and are unable to continue the fight against other opponents?.

  The guys posting here that push the idea of a punch to the jaw don’t know anatomy very well. Why in the hell would anyone deliberately attack some of the hardest and most dense bones in the human body, the bones of the skull and jaw, with some of the weakest and most easily broken bones of the body, the metacarpals of the hand and metatarsals of the foot? Do you really think that these millenia old martial arts styles couldn’t find a better way to fight than to slam the softest parts of your body into the hardest parts of your opponent’s body and hope he falls unconscious faster than your hand breaks?

  Kyusho answers that problem. The strikes are just as hard, but they are aimed better, so that the effect is greater for your opponent and less painful for you. Does nobody here see the value of what that sort of fighting technique might have to offer in terms of efficacy?

• 27 Backdraft // Jan 19, 2007

  One does’nt kick with the foot, one kicks with the SHINBONE. Wich you should know, what whith your “superior angles” and all.

  Why attack the jaw? Because it jars the brain, causing concussion. It’s been proven so many times it’s not funny. While all you have is hearsay, and bad interpretation. Last of all, George Dillman is a fraud. Proven fraud. Big time fraud. And so is Dim Mak.

• 28 slideyfoot // Jan 19, 2007

  “As George Dillman explains, the techniques are already in the regular kata and bunkai performed by every martial artist from child to adult.”

  Again, I strongly urge you to watch the actual documented evidence that has been posted up to support the case against dim mak. Please tell me you don’t think Dillman is making a credible excuse at the end of this video:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

  “Does nobody here see the value of what that sort of fighting technique might have to offer in terms of efficacy?”

  Not until we see some proof. Considering that in this thread alone four videos have been posted up in which dim mak failed miserably in terms of efficacy, I think our position is more reasonable than yours.

  To recap:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN787VmJiL8

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQeUkUO5ZPo&eurl=

• 29 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 19, 2007

  Hi Everyone,

  I have read thru the recent string of posts, and respectfully would add the following thoughts:

  One of the biggest problems with the subject of Dim-Mak is credibility. When folks started to write about this topic in English 40 years ago, it was often described as “one of the greatest plateaus” within the arts. And it was shrouded in mystique. In reality, the subject was originally the study of medicine (from the old Asian perspective), and it was all about understanding how people became injured in fights, and what needed to be done to treat the injuries.

  The old Dim-Mak material from China and Okinawa, dating prior to 1900, was usually presented in the following manner:

  (a) On the top of the page – there would always be a description of the type of injury being discussed. The descriptions were usually brief, but were always specific as to the place on the body being hit (usually defined by the acupoint and meridian areas being affected). If the strike was causing a serious level of trauma, this was also discussed – using the Asian medical imagery of the time.

  (b) On the bottom of the page – there was a description of the herbal formula needed to treat the injury, along with acupuncture notes.

  Prior to 1900, the Asian approach to medicine in China was simply termed “Dim-Mak.” It was all about healing people. But in order to understand how to treat trauma, the old Chinese Martial Arts Masters (who were considered doctors from the temple orders) also studied how it was inflicted. And so they kept notes on both. That was the original genesis of this subject. And it took lots and lots of skill and practice to learn correctly. It was hard and rigorous training. It was NOT a shortcut. It was not systematized around simple point sequences. It always required physical skill and action.

  The problem with the subject of Dim-Mak today is it has become heavily distorted, over sensationalized, and is awash with incorrect material.

  In the 1960’s and 1970’s, a wave of bad information was sold to the public. To my knowledge, this started around 1963. The first may have been a well-known judo instructor in LA, who sold booklets via comic book ads, under the name “Honorable Master Kung Fu.” This material purported to teach the “secrets of Dim-Mak… and the fabled “No Touch Knockouts.” In reality, it was a well-illustrated booklet of judo techniques! It was NOT Dim-Mak. Beginning in the late 1960’s, another martial artist in Chicago did a similar thing… selling booklets thru comic book ads, also purporting to teach “Dim-mak” and the fabled “Death Touch.” Again, this material was not based on any credible source material or training. At best, it was akin to streetfighting techniques. But the author called it “Dim-mak” – and many people accepted that.

  During the 1980’s and 1990’s, a new wave of material came out. In my humble opinion, some was good; a lot was bad. In internet forums, when the lineage or credibility of certain techniques was brought up, some of these instructors would simply allude to un-named “old Shao-lin poems” which they claimed “proved” any martial use of acupoints was really Dim-Mak… and therefore, what they were teaching was “100% authentic”… no mater what it was. This was all highly incorrect. The legitimate source records which specifically reference Dim-Mak (such as the Bubishi), are very specific on what is and is not Dim-Mak.

  In reality, a large number of these these types of instructors were never classically trained in this subject. In certain cases, they had, at best, developed their own approach to the topic, thru trial-and-error, or personal research trying to reverse engineer concepts. Or they used techniques from an existing style which they did know (like judo or chin-na), and simply modified it and called it the same as “Dim-Mak.”

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

• 30 slideyfoot // Jan 20, 2007

  Out of interest, what’s your opinion on the videos, Rick?

  Also, do you have a view on George Dillman? I notice he hasn’t cropped up in your posts yet.

  Finally, on the topic of suspicious adverts purporting to teach ‘dim mak’ back in the 70s, here’s a flashback for you:

  http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/data/557/medium/SSOC_007_August_1975_p56.jpg

• 31 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 21, 2007

  Dear slideyfoot,

  In reference to the videos, poor technique is poor technique. And improper technique never works, under any conditions.

  In Okinawa, prior to 1945, they had an old practice called “Jutsu.” It was somewhat akin to a wild-west shoot-out. Two martial artists would cross paths. A challenge would often be made, and a close-quarter duel would often ensue. Thus, a martial artists’ skill was often put to the test, and at times were critical to their survival. Obviously, in today’s polite society, we do not have the same training environ. Which in certain ways has led to a lot of untried and unproven claims.

  There are lots of folks in today’s world claiming to be martial arts masters. But what did they have to go thru to earn that? It is extremely rare to find anyone who was properly taught the Old Way, by a qualified Bujin master. The difference in quality instruction can be considerable. Unfortunately, the general public continues to see a black belt from any style as being fairly equal in skill base to eachother. This is further ascerbated by the regretable paradigm, in which skill is equated by plastic trophys and cinema time.

  Yes, I am very familiar with Mr. Dillman. He has been active in martial arts circles since the early 1960’, and made quite a name for himself in the 70’s and 80’s doing ice breaks. In the early 90’s, he started self-publishing material on pressure points, after experimenting with submission techniques he had seen demonstrated by Seiyu Oyata and Hohen Soken. Over the past 15+ years, he and his students have attempted to research pressure points by a wide variety of methods. Mr. Dillman’s books and tapes lay out the concepts of “the Dillman theory of pressure point fighting,” which he says is dim mak. I respectfully do not agree with all aspects of that claim.

  In reference to the Count Dante flashback… yes, that was one of the many sources of opinions on dim mak which swirled around in the 1970’s. Mr. Dante managed to sell quite a few of those booklets, and received quite a bit of press coverage – until a tragic series of deaths at his Chicago dojo effectively discredited him and his system.

  Just my humble opinion!

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 32 slideyfoot // Jan 22, 2007

  Thanks for the response, Rick.

  “Obviously, in today’s polite society, we do not have the same training environ. Which in certain ways has led to a lot of untried and unproven claims.”

  In a sense, we do, in the form of MMA competition (UFC, Pride etc). Its not quite the same, as there are doctors on hand and a referree, so generally not “critical to their survival”, but it DOES provide an excellent training environ in which to test unproven claims. This was even more true in the early UFC, when the rules were very limited (no eye-gouging or biting), and even then breaking those rules would merely result in a fine rather than disqualification.

  Not to mention that the concept of the UFC wasn’t new in 1993, predated by various organisations in Japan, and even earlier by competitions in Brazil. I’ve also heard there was something vaguely similar in Asia (might have been Hong Kong or Thailand), but I haven’t yet seen documented evidence. Well, unless something like this counts:

  http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/data/557/tournament_held_in_Shanghai_.JPG

  “I respectfully do not agree with all aspects of that claim.”

  Would you mind going into further detail? I wouldn’t agree with Dillman’s claims either, particularly going by the videos which would appear to disprove them. I’m assuming that in addition, you would have a more theoretically grounded objection?

• 33 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 22, 2007

  Hi slidefoot,

  In reference to the UFC and similar types of matches… yes, they do help validate certain types of techniques, to a point. And yes, the required training and development of fighters in these types of no-holds matches can be extensive, hard and rigorous. But there still are certain levels of difference which can exist. A hypothetical example, of sorts, would be comparing two boxers of relative equal standing. Both trained in similar ways. But one of the two fighters served two tours in the special forces, in which they legally had to use their martial skills to survive. And in that combat environment, the had to take it to the highest level. The other hypothetical fighter did not, and only trained in the gym, and participated in organized matches. That is the difference I am referring to. There is an intensity in warfare-earned, combat proven skills in which lives are fully at risk. This type of proving ground is absent from other training settings – no matter how hard. This is the training intensity that used to exist in Asia, and were often mployed fully in life and death encounters. Gogen Yamaguchi and Mas Oyama often noted this same disctinction to their students during the 1960’s and 1970’s.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 34 slideyfoot // Jan 22, 2007

  As I mentioned, I can see that there is a difference between testing your skills in a ring with doctors and a ref as opposed to a genuinely life or death situation. However, I still feel that in terms of the point you made regarding “a lot of untried and unproven claims,” the MMA format is an ideal environment in which to rectify that situation.

  It isn’t life or death, but it IS an arena in which your opponent is doing their best to knock you out: in other words, a fully resisting partner. If a technique can work in this environment, then that would strongly imply it is a viable technique.

  Interestingly enough, the US military has recently moved towards a BJJ-influenced curriculum for its hand-to-hand training. BJJ was arguably the starting point for MMA in the US, and could now legitimately be called a ‘battlefield art’, as in it has been utilised on a battlefield, in a life-or-death situation.

  E.g., see this thread:

  http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1279786

• 35 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 22, 2007

  Slideyfoot,

  You are pulling that string of words in the wrong direction. My comment was specific to the central issue being asked… are certain techniques being taught and labelled by certain instructors as “dim mak” actually dim mak, or are they something else?

  I find it interesting when certain folks claim to be “masters” on this subject… yet they have never “walked the path” required to know this subject correctly and fully – nor did they study under someone who also “walked the path” in the Old Way. So it can lead to a credibility question, as to how the person “fully learned” these techniques?

  For example, certain folks have claimed they “fully understand” the lethal death strike aspect of this subject… but they never served in any capacity (i.e., military, law enforcement, etc.), in which they were forced by circumstances to legally take this subject to its hitghest outcome level. So how do they fully know them?

  Credible arts produce credible fighters. All martial arts styles have strengths and weaknesses. To become proficient in any martial art requires lots and lots of hard practice, and this includes sparring and matches and so forth. This has never been at issue.

  I am quite aware of the military martial arts training programs. Very respectfully, I have taught some classes myself at a few bases during my career.

  BJJ is one of many martial arts under contract to the military, and studied by the men and women in uniform. For example, where I am currently at, they also actively teaching classes in Goju-Ryu, Kempo, JKD, and TKD. Plus a few others. During Vietnam, Judo and TKD were in vogue, and were heavily used and effective. There are many fine martial arts training programs that have been taught and used. Warefare, like well-organized sparring matches and so forth, have a way of weeding out bad technique.

  About four years ago, we had Billy Blnks out here in the Gulf of Arabia teaching Tae Bo. The marines were all out in the sand, doing Tae Bo moves with Billy. His classes were very popular, that he taught hundreds of folks out here for several weeks. They also filmed everything for a DVD series he was making. Many of the participants walked away, commenting that they thought they could use some of those nifty Tae Bo moves in a real fight. So could it also legitimately be a “battlefield art?”

  Just my humble opinion.

  I wish you the very best on your training.

  Rick

• 36 slideyfoot // Jan 24, 2007

  Thanks for the response, Rick.

  I think you may have missed the point I was making, however. BJJ is not simply taught on a seminar basis, it is now an integral part of the Modern Army Combatives program. In other words, this is not a case of external instructors from some style or other popping along to a military base and saying “hey, want to see some tae-bo?”. It’s an actual part of required military curriculum.

  Perhaps I should have linked the article which crops up in that thread:

  http://www.moderncombatives.org/index.html

  leading to

  http://www.moderncombatives.org/training.html

  “In this same way the concept of dominant body position from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the base for Modern Combatives. The dominant positions are the spine that connects all of the techniques. ”

  Also here:

  http://www.moderncombatives.org/history.html

  “The Chief of Staff of the Army has recognized Combatives as one the blocks of the modern Soldier and formal instruction in the program is included in all Non-Commisioned Officer Education System and Officer Education System courses as well as being a requirment for graduationg Initial Entry Training and being included inthe Warrior Tasks List, required knowledge for every Soldier.”

• 37 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 25, 2007

  Hi Slideyfoot,

  In reference to your post, in which you mentioned:

  “I think you may have missed the point I was making, however. BJJ is not simply taught on a seminar basis, it is now an integral part of the Modern Army Combatives program. ”

  No, I fully understood your post. I am quite familiar with the martial arts training program you are referencing, along with the others. And I am fully aware of how they are being used in the field. I am in the Gulf of Arabia right now, and I have been since shortly after 9/11.

  BJJ is one of several martial styles currently under contract for long-term training of the uniform military services. There are a number of such programs that exist. BJJ is a excellent art. But it is not the only one being actively utilized.

  Anyway, I have spent enought time on this subject. I wish you the very best on your continued training.

  All the best from the Gulf of Arabia,

  Rick

• 38 ambulocetus // Feb 17, 2007

  For the most part, I agree with Mr Bauer, but I posit that he may be perhaps too polite. If you go to youtube and start looking at videos of old asian masters there is always some UFC fan there calling these old guys names.Saying that a 94 year old practicing QiGong is a fairy and that he should jump in the ring is just disrespectful. Unless you are a soldier, a cop or a professional athlete martial arts is about one thing: self improvement. Judging by what I’ve seen BJJ/MMA are about as effective in this regard as watching Hulk Hogan bash Andre the Giant with a folding chair. Self improvement includes respect. These dogmatic BJJ nazis remind me of creationists. It doesn’t matter how well you explain things, they won’t listen. I agree that if Dillmans technique were real he probably could win a UFC, but thats no reason to sneer at the average non-professional trying to improve the quality of life. Yes, if I got into the ring with a Gracie I would get my a$$ handed to me, but I’m skinny and over 40. I say rolling around on the ground in a dark alley playing grab-a$$ with a mugger when broken bottles and used hypodermic needles are all over is about as smart as going to a Dillman seminar.

• 39 Richard C. Bauer // Feb 18, 2007

  In reference to ambulocetus’ post, in which he said (in part)…

  “[In reference to Rick's e-mail]…I posit that he may be perhaps too polite. ”

  Thank you. You are a true martial artist.

  Very respectfully,

  Rick

• 40 mmabjj // Feb 19, 2007

  Mr. Bauer, have you ever trained with Amulocetus? Then how can you know if he is a true martial artists?

  Aye, there’s the rub.

  We have different ideas about what a martial artist is.

  Mine? That you know how to fight.

  Yours? (apparently) That you can speak with feigned honour.

  Much as you all like to talk about honour, respect, tradition, all that gubbins, let’s not lose sight of what the martial arts were created for.

  To teach people how to fight.

  All the rest is secondary, no?

• 41 Richard C. Bauer // Feb 19, 2007

  mmabjj,

  I respect your opinions, but I do not agree with you. I am sorry that you do not respect mine.

  I wish you the very best in your training.

  R

• 42 geemann // Aug 4, 2007

  I agree with you on all your points Rick. I respectfully do not believe there are a lot of talented or enlightened martial artists with knowledge of DM participating in UFC etc. I can say that I know for a fact that pressure points are real. Boxers know there is a point to the lower jaw on the side of the chin that when hit with the correct angle will result in a knockout. [basic] Cavity press, sleeper holds, etc. are not as refined as DM but very real and very obvious. I believe that those who have knowledge of acupuncture understand DM better than most martial artists. A blow with correct angle to the side of the neck causes an immediate drop in blood pressure and respiration no matter what time of day or night its done. If you have 12 hours a day to perfect DM then I believe it is possible to obtain the full measure of this art. I believe there are better techniques, to improve and advance a martial artist and benefit your entire being. I also believe there are even more deadly and esoteric arts than DM but lets not go there. This has turned into the same old; “what works and what does not work discussion”

• 43 thesnare // Sep 4, 2007

  this may offer a better explanation as to how and why it works, uses anatomical explanations rather than the mystic chi energy one.

  http://www.taiji.net/old_yang.html

• 44 Richard C. Bauer // Sep 6, 2007

  In reference to the post from “the snare,” I have attached an old article I wrote about 10 years ago, which hopefully will provide some additional and relevant information.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

  A PRIMER ON PRESSURE POINTS

• 45 thesnare // Sep 6, 2007

  Is choking really similar to dim mak? Choking is interrupting the flow of breath, not pressure points.

• 46 geemann // Sep 6, 2007

  It would depend on what you call a choke. My understanding of what a, sleeper hold would be, “Compression of the Arteries” on the sides of the neck
  [What is sometimes called; "Sealing the Vein"] Of course crushing someones windpipe with a choke, [or with a blow that would cause the neck muscles to contract and block the flow of air] would not be Dim Mak as most people understand it. There are however different levels in the art that are frequently misunderstood. There are also levels that combine, “Sealing the breath” with “Sealing the Vein” as they are sometimes called. There is also
  a level that was practiced with striking rice paper with the fingers for penetration. This was referred to as; “Poison Hand” and no, they did not use poison in their fingernails or anything like that. [IMHO] This was the Dim Mak that I believe most people have trouble understanding. It had to do with certain strikes, [and combinations] performed at certain times of day or night that would correspond to certain vital points and organs of the body as practiced in Traditional Chinese Medicine. With all due respect to George and the other proponents of the art, I don’t believe it is something you can learn in a seminar, or without much thought, practice, and meditation. Is it hidden in different forms, and positions of martial arts? I believe to some extent it is, but that is not unusual given the limitless number of forms in combat. Because I don’t practice Dim Mak, I can only offer my opinions. I am a semi retired martial artist and musician. In no way am I a master of the subject. As soon as I have time I will check the website postings again, but for now I have too much practicing to do. Good Luck!

• 47 geemann // Sep 6, 2007

  One thought I would like to add to my last comments are that some of the arts like DM are not practical to our way of life today. We are not monks with nothing but time on our hands, [we have jobs] we wear more restrictive clothing for the most part and the world has changed. [The only constant] The arrival of gunpowder, and the Boxer Rebellion, changed Martial Arts, Combat, and History forever. They are still however, “Arts” and sometimes, “very effective”

• 48 Tom // Sep 6, 2007

  You are all off your rockers. This is a bunch of non-sense

• 49 geemann // Sep 7, 2007

  I think every opinion is useful, even yours! I believe Bruce said to take whats useful and discard the rest. [Good Advise!] I think there are a lot of good opinions, and useful information here. Richard, and Ricks comments make a lot of sense and answer a lot of questions to those who take the time to read them. Hats off to those that have given the subject some thought whatever your opinion is!

• 50 Richard C. Bauer // Sep 13, 2007

  The body has many locations where a sufficient strike will cause a specific level of trauma. Because the body functions along certain physical laws, the ancient Chinese were able to experiment with applied trauma patterns, and figure out many types of strikes that could consistently produce a very predictable outcome. The problem is, some modern authors (as well as some martial arts instructors) do not understand all this. Not all the material that has been published on this subject is well researched, accurate, or ground in fact.

  The traditional dim-mak attack patterns handed down by the Old Masters targeted specific acupoint centers along the 12 main Chi meridians and the 2 midline collaterals. Within the Okinawan Bubishi, a number of these strike patterns are described. 36 of these strike patterns were considered the highest order (dim mak), and 72 were considered lower order strike patterns (dim hseuh and dim ching)… for a total of 108 patterns. There is some slight variation in the composition of these lists between the various schools of thought.

  As an academic example, there are a number of strike patterns that have been medically shown, through modern clinical study, to have a specific cause-and-effect relationships to specific outcomes. If done correctly, these patterns are VERY regular and VERY consistent. Some of these strikes are very straight forward, and some are very complex. But it should also be noted that many also have certain dangers associated with them. Because of the risks of certain injury associated with practicing any type of martial arts program, I would strongly encourage anyone out there to seek out a highly qualified teacher, and learn these types of techniques through properly supervised study.

  There is no clear historical records of how the superstitions swirling around Dim Mak started, or the exact date. It is probable that they started as rumors, as rival clans in Asia competed for martial techniques which would give them an edge in a fight. And as part of that bravado, many claims also emerged… not all of which were true. By the boxer rebellion period (1899-1900), there were a number of commonly held Dim-Mak myths within the MA community… such as people could train in Gung-Fu to the point that they could kill people with just the slightest touch (or without any touch), and deflect bullets with their internal Chi energy, etc. These fables, unfortunately, continue to persist, and cloud and detract the public perception of this subject.

• 51 geemann // Sep 14, 2007

  Thanks for the clarification and information. Because healing, and Traditional Chinese Medicine are also a part of the learning curve, I think its important to learn how to bring someone out of a knockout at the same time or before pursuing this. Organ failure, etc. requires knowledge on how to reverse the damage. I only know of 2-3 masters who still have this knowledge. [perhaps there are more, I don't know] One source and good authority would be, Erle Montaigue at; http://www.taijiworld.com Richard already put it as well as I have heard it. Its difficult to pin down all the sets and subsets and modifications that are part of the nature of Chinese Martial Arts. As such, I think I understand why there is so much I don’t understand, if that makes any sense. DM is a good example. There are probably equal parts myth and fact.

• 52 Richard C. Bauer // Sep 14, 2007

  Hi Geemann,

  I agree with the obseravtions you have made, regarding the traditional health aspects / roots of dim-mak.

  In addition to what you wrote, I would respectfully add the following thoughts and observations:

  To humbly paraphrase my teacher, Dim Mak was originally the entire method of medical instruction for Chinese Doctors; their traditional philosophy being one of Yin and Yang, in that one must understand the healing aspect in order to understand the destructive aspect.

  The traditional Asian approach to medicine permeates the full curriculum of classical dim-mak theory and practice. It is one of the reasons why GrandMaster Walker and I chose the title “The Art of Life and Death” for our book on this subject. In China, a master instructor was required to show proficiency in both areas.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

• 53 Leyton Jay // Sep 14, 2007

  Thanks for the excellant information and historical context. Fascinating.

  (PS. You can prevent spam in your blog using session variables hidden in the background, it’s cleaner than asking the user for the answers to formulae)

• 54 thesnare // Sep 14, 2007

  Also, people have said “If this works, why do we never see it in UFC/Pride/MMA?” small joint manipulations are banned in UFC, and according to wikipedia (though it doesn’t say so in the fouls section on the UFC website) pressure point strikes were banned in UFC 15, though there were previously both allowed.

• 55 thesnare // Sep 14, 2007

  Though I do think some more solid evidence is required, if mmabj and slideyfoot submit to pressure point strike from Duan Bao Hua and absolutely nothing happens, I’ll be totally convinced on their side of the argument. Yes, poor technique is poor technique, but on someone who has demonstrated it successfully on someone who doesn’t believe in it at all like them, then that will prove our side of the argument.

• 56 geemann // Sep 14, 2007

  Everyone is different! some folks are very visual in wanting evidence, some are not. We all respond differently. I will acknowledge that there can be a, Carnival, TV Evangelist, approach to Chi Gong demonstrations but the same could apply to some of the UFC fights I have witnessed. What ever happened to the element of surprise? If you know it is coming does it change the outcome? Speaking for myself, I have only used my very limited knowledge of pressure points for two things. First for pain relief, and once to assist a fellow worker who was suffering a seizure on the job. As Richard pointed out, Traditional Chinese Medicine is deeply rooted and integrated in the DM art. For me this is enough evidence without having visual evidence that some others demand. An interesting thought has come to me. Imagine that we were investigating Acupuncture instead of Dim Mak. I would be willing to bet that the same folks, with the same temperaments, and same opinions, would have the same or similar viewpoints that they do on Dim Mak LOL! BTW, I have not seen the video yet. I can understand some of the frustration, thesnare and others feel in their view for evidence. It really comes down to what you believe and what you don’t. These viewpoints will likely continue to repeat themselves long after this website is gone. I hope we all learn something from it.

• 57 thesnare // Sep 14, 2007

  Well, true, but we all have the same anatomy, the same pressure points, the same nerves and arteries, sometimes they can be anomalies, a person is born with six fingers or more, and some women CAN grow a beard, and of course everyone is unique unless they are an identical twin, but we all have the same DNA that makes us human and builds us the same way, either male or female from the point the egg becomes fertilized, so we should all have the exact same weak points.

  Also, something that’s objective doesn’t require belief, you’ll still fall if you don’t believe in gravity, and still get burned if you don’t believe in fire.

  Anyway, personally I hope this art is true, it seems like it could be useful, for self defense, perhaps even stunningly so. I took chin na, of which dim mak was a part of, never got that far up where were taught it, we mostly focused on joint and bone locks.

• 58 geemann // Sep 15, 2007

  Thats an interesting comment you make. Its not what I meant by, “different” however. I was trying to make the point that we all process information differently. [including what we consider evidence] Some for example might be, “analytical”, some may process information more on a, “auditory” level. And finally there are a lot of people who will only accept, “hard visual evidence” only. Did the joint locks you learned with Chin Na work? By the way you are absolutely correct to connect Chin Na with Dim Mak. Both are usually part of a larger system like, Northern Shaolin and a few others. I just believe that if the locks work, the techniques work, acupuncture works, [at least I believe it does] Then why would I doubt that Dim Mak would not work? I believe its a very, “dated art” but I would never dismiss it outright, or worse yet refer to it as, fake or nonsense! Everyone says, lets test it, but it is always on someone else’s terms! What would be gained? Is it that important for the individuals with doubts, or is it more important for the art to survive? My own question is on, how long does it take to really learn it along with Chinese Medicine? I have no doubt it will knock you out.
  I could go to a George Dillman seminar and see a knockout! Are they all brainwashed students that have already made up their minds before dropping under nausea? possibly? but I am not volunteering to find out. Another thing I would like to point out is that most of the real masters of this art are getting along in their years. Does anyone really expect one of these guys to suit up and jump in the ring with the Gracie’s? [when they don't have a point to prove in the first place?]

• 59 thesnare // Sep 15, 2007

  Yes, the locks in Chin na did work, I could definitely feel some pain when someone used it on me. My classes were with Dr Yang-Jwing Ming, you may have heard of him. He was Black Belt magazine’s artist of the year once, in Kung-fu
  http://www.yangsmartialarts.com

  However, the mechanism for those locks is well known, as he explains, your twisting the bone or tendon in an unnatural way, a way it’s not supposed to or designed to go, sending pain sensations to the brain, doing damage. It should be noted that he is also a PhD in mechanical engineering, so he definitely knows how to view things with a scientific mindset. There’s a breakdown of how exactly each subset of chin na works, here:

  http://www.yangsandover.com/programs.shtml?page=categories

  All of them seem to have sensible, reasonable explanations, except the one with the mystical chi energy, Dian Mai. If something works, it works, if it can be observed, and isn’t being faked, but this seems to be just a semi-religious explanation, like how before we knew what made people sick we had the 4 humors of the body explanation.

  I’m just taking into consideration that stuff that’s been posted in this thread and being objective here. George Dillman was also mentioned here as being a fraud, and there’s a link in this thread with him explaining as to why one of his dim mak moves didn’t work. I’m leaning towards that he is a not a credible source of information, it seems. If Dim-mak is real, he at least isn’t a qualified practitioner.

  I think it would be useful to have a session where it was used on UFC fighter, either a demonstration, or where the fighter is fully resisting and trying to hit the person. In Fact, I may wear pads and have someone really try to hit me while doing chin na joint locks, so I know I could do it in a real situation.

• 60 geemann // Sep 15, 2007

  Thanks for the links, I was trying to remember Dr. Ming earlier and have read many of his books, vids etc. He is one of the leading authorities on the subject and an awesome instructor! What bothers me is the trend of a lot of people and martial artists to refer to Chi as being, “mystical”. Some instructors seem to have the same take without really understanding what it is, and how it functions. There are probably as many misconceptions about it as there is with Dim Mak. William Chen went to some lengths to explain Tai Chi as, “Body Mechanics” some years ago. Sometimes I think
  terms like, leverage, balance, weight, etc would better be understood if it were left in Chinese terms. Sometimes translations to english do not have a suitable equivalent that really explain it correctly. If you think of Chi, or Dim Mak as being, ” mystical” you set yourself up for misinformation right away. [in my opinion] I am very much in agreement with you, and I think it is a good thing to question your training, and even, “test” it. It keeps Martial Arts healthy and weeds out some of the scams. Having said that, I disagree with the brothers who show disrespect and issue blatant challenges to others with an air of arrogance. Believe it or not, both sides of the fence need one another. Sportsmanship, and respect is where it all should start. If you want to test Dim Mak in a resisting environment, I see nothing wrong with that concept.
  You should probably keep it real and skip the pads though. [unless you were to wear them all the time] It would be rather difficult to apply the technique with an extremely limited target area I would think. I agree that a fully resisting opponent is much different than, 1-2 step sparring! No rocket science there! As for George Dillman, I have not been aware of what the controversy was. I am just getting back to classes after a long layoff. I am hoping to get together with some UW students this quarter and get back to a training practice schedule. I would urge you, and any others who are interested in Chi, [or don't understand it] to check out all of the top notch Tai Chi, Bagua, instructors we have in the Seattle, and Eastside areas. There are so many great Chi Gong
  teachers it would not be fair to name one. You cant go wrong!
  We are very fortunate to have them! They could explain much better than I could, the Chi concept. Good Luck with your training and quest!

• 61 thesnare // Sep 16, 2007

  It’s actually Dr Yang, (there’s someone named Kathy Yang, who is on his site, and probably his daughter) usually in Chinese and Japanese Families, the family name comes first. Then, when they come over here, where our last names come last, they switch it, to be more compatible with Western Society.

  Maybe I will ask Dr Yang sometime about if he does Dim Mak demonstrations, and he could do a minor one on me.

  What you mention about respect and sportsmanship is something I’ve thought about at length. Sports like boxing and UFC, which can be considered both martial arts, don’t have the same element that something karate and aikido do. Dr Yang’s classes were small, and very, very informal, there were no belts, uniforms, or salutes of any kind. It seems that was reserved for the Kung-Fu classes he taught (the Kung Fu guys who also took Chin Na would have to salute at the end of class) but, I’ve been to others such as when I took karate at around 7 years old (just a few classes) we had to call the teacher sensei, salute, and respect rules. As well as this Aikido school I saw in which they said their salutes at the beginning and endof class in traditional Japanese style, wore gaea’s, etc. Boxing and UFC don’t have this element of respect it seems.

  In martial arts movies, there needs to be some kind of conflict between good and evil. So, they create some kind of evil martial arts practitioners, like in the Karate Kid movies, that movie Showdown with Billy Blanks, an 80’s movie called “No Retreat, No surrender” (Van Damme’s first movie- he was the bad guy)

  But, just how common are these evil martial arts schools and teachers in real life? Remember in The Karate Kid 1, Mr Miyagi says that there’s no such thing as a bad student, only a bad teacher, then how did the teacher become bad? Somewhere along the line, the student must have betrayed a good teacher (see Dragonheart, for example) and passed it on to his students. But, I just wondered if there are any schools, where the teacher doesn’t care if his students abuse his teachings. There was one Karate school around here where the teacher went looking at some kids at recess to make sure they weren’t abusing his teachings, trying to intimidate and bully kids with his art. Now, that’s a good teacher!

• 62 Chris // Sep 16, 2007

  Thank you all for your comments. In an effort to keep this related to Dim Mak, I will remind you that these other topics have been discussed elsewhere:
  What Every Martial Artist Should Know About Chi and TCM
  Do You Have a Comprehensive Testing Plan?
  Scarcity and Abundance in Martial Arts Instruction

  thesnare, I hope that last comment about the Karate teacher was sarcasm!

• 63 geemann // Sep 16, 2007

  I stand corrected, and in no way intended disrespect to Dr. Yang
  I wish I would have had the opportunity to meet him. He is in fact someone I would consider an authority for the subject of Dim Mak. Most traditional teachers teach the way they were taught. I just thought that if you have a problem with his explanation, perhaps another instructor could explain it better.
  [Some of his books on Yang style are very different than others]
  They are packed with a lot of knowledge and presented with his own particular style. I am not sure where you were going with all the movie quotes. Maybe you need a Dim Mak demonstration to convince you, I think you are sincere! For myself, there are a few things I wont do. Crab fish in Alaska, Jump out of a plane, hang from a peak with my knuckles, or set myself up as a, “Dim Mak Dummy” You have an opportunity to learn what a lot of us would like to know about
  the subject through your instructor. If I were you I would take advantage of it. Sometimes you have to study for years, [through advanced fighting sets] before you can, “test it” Hang with it! questions will be answered and good things will happen. I also need to reach some of those goals!

• 64 thesnare // Sep 17, 2007

  No, it wasn’t sarcasm, he was just making sure that they weren’t abusing what he was teaching him, which I think is good, you don’t? Wish I could have e-mailed this to you however.

• 65 geemann // Sep 17, 2007

  Unless we can find someone who has mastered Dim Mak to weigh in, I think we have just about exhausted this subject. There are a lot of good links, and information but any more discussion might stray from the topic. I am ready to move on.
  Thanks for the discussion!

• 66 Chris // Sep 17, 2007

  thesnare, anyone can email me from the About link at the top of the page. I don’t think that a Karate teacher who watches other people’s children on the playground is doing his job.

• 67 #9 // Oct 11, 2007

  i hear dim mak is very deadly. i have 2 questions though
  1. how long would it take to learn it
  2. is there anything basic that can be taught?

• 68 Richard C. Bauer // Oct 16, 2007

  Hi #9,

  In reference to your post, I would respectfully offer the following:

  In terms of your first question, in which you asked “How long would it take to learn [Dim Mak]“… in many ways, this is dependent on the student, and their willingness to learn, and the quality and skill of their teacher.

  VIEWPOINT #1: To properly learn Dim Mak the old traditional way, it would take years and years of hard work, practice and study, directly under a qualified master instructor. The whole curriculum was originally based on the 36-chamber sequence (such as in Shaolin, prior to the Boxer Rebellion period), and usually took ten full years of hard study… 12+ hours a day, 6 days a week. It was very, very difficult.

  VIEWPOINT #2: Some modern teachers allege that they have reverse-engineered Dim-Mak through research and experimentation, and claim that they have perfected a number of training sequences and methods, which will cut thru all the “chaffe,” and can teach you everything you need to know about Dim Mak in about one year. In the late 90’s, there was one American teacher who was quoted in a British Martial Arts magazine, stating that modern students don’t have the time to spend in training like they did in Asia prior to World War II. He claimed to devise modern teaching methods, that purport to teach students advanced and complicated techniques, such as Dim Mak, through a series of one-hour seminars.

  In terms of your second question, in which you asked “Is there anything basic that can be taught [about Dim Mak]?”… yes. But the value of what you will learn and receive is highly dependent on how you are studying / training, and so forth.

  A Martial Art, at its most central tenant, is about fighting and self-defense. If you study a subject incorrectly, it can limit what you are able to respond with in a real threat situation. The old masters always stressed learning the basics of self defense first, and then building up from there. I would strongly encourage you to study under a qualified teacher, and practice, practice, practice.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 69 #9 // Oct 16, 2007

  well it would be hard to find some one who would teach me dim mak but id be willing to learn.right now im in tacoma were everyone uses knifes or guns and what not. i don’t have either. i do know and somewhat rememberbasic blocking from when i was in karate a while back but that was a while back. if i could learn dim mak i could defend myself over here a bit better. ill try to look for a teacher though, i think i might have the time to learn. the jobs im applying for don’t have postition and the my lady is in germany so i rarely talk to her. so learning dim mak would be a good way to learn to defend my self and kill time.

• 70 Richard C. Bauer // Oct 16, 2007

  Hi #9,

  I know the Tacoma area very well. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and went to college down in Parkland.

  Some self-styled teachers of “Dim Mak” purport that it can be learned through a series of short cut, of sorts, to training, and can be employed quickly and effectively in simple, easy steps. There are also modern claims that it is simply about hitting accupoints… so anyone can rapidly learn it, and in doing so, “increase their power 10x.” I do not agree with this position. In my humble opinion, these types of views are contrary to proper training, are wholy incorrect, misleading, and irresponsible.

  Based on your follow-up post, I would strongly recommend that you find a really good instructor in the Tacoma area, in a martial style you like, and work on learning the basics of self defense first. This will require lots of hard work and hard practice, and probably several years of study.

  Dim Mak is all about precision striking. It should not be viewed as the starting point of a martial arts training program. It is the refinement and further advancement of skill, and should only be done after a student has reached a certain proficiency in their training. In Asia, advanced concepts like Dim Mak were only taught after the student had fully demonstrated the necessary prerequisite skill base. This consisted (in part) of lots and lots of free sparring training, hard workouts and practice, and so forth. In the old schools, the proper study of Dim Mak was never rushed, and it was never partially taught. The training only began after the student had reached the necessary proficiency in the basic skill sets of fighting; such as blocking, striking, etc., as determined by their instructor. This could only be reaced after seveal years of serious study and practice, and lots of hard work and dedication. Otherwise, the student was not properly skilled enough to employ it effectively, correctly, or wisely.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 71 Kendrick // Nov 8, 2007

  I just stumbled upon this site in search of Dim Mak material, because I experienced Dim Mak a few years back. A good friend of my uncle’s introduced me to it, because I was being a typical eighteen-year-old who thought of himself as invincible. After knocking both of my arms out of commision, I realized I should have kept my mouth shut. Now, I’m trying to find a few training materials for my own study, since he will not train someone who has not already achieved a black belt, and then he tests them himself. I have experience in several martial arts already (Tae Kwon Do, Kendo, Tai Chi, and Goju-Ryu). Do you have any recommendations on books/DVDs? Thanks for your time.

• 72 Grave // Dec 21, 2007

  Hi to all it is a very interesting subject, I do belive in the soft fist tech and the Dim Mak, but until I can “feel” the 3 points your out tech I will have 100% aceptance in it until then only 80% much of that is because I have been in fight of masses (more than 20 guys were you dont know whos friend or foe) and some guys do have pressure point tech training but could not use it becaus of X manner and end up in the hospital with 4 broken ribs and crying, while the just kick that motha ****er end up “winning” im sure the techs work but only in people that can think under pressure of were and how to anyone can learn but if at the point of practice you dont recall what you lear it dosent work…. Im currently learning general taijitsu…. will stick to swords till I get it…. there will always be a stick pipe or X to use as a sword…. NOTE: I do belive the thing is not 100% till I experience it first hand in “combat” just sparing will do it ^_^

• 73 Farmer // Jan 6, 2008

  Despite everything, I think that everyone’s culture should be treated with respect. I mean- and this does sound weird- they’re not hurting anyone, are they?

  Besides, it’s one thing to scoff at a load of martial artists when you watch them practice on YouTube, but I bet that not one of us would even consider going two rounds with them.

  Viva la differance

• 74 DAN HILL // Jan 19, 2008

  i have trained in wing chun for 4 years and boxing 6 years. i have experiance fighting in a ring and on the street. we are taught to protect the arm pit in bieu jue becaus this is a dim mok presure point. the autery ther goes right to the hart if you are hit with a full force strike there it will kill you! our wooden dummy set contains dim mok seqences. a chi strike is a internal strike when aplied to a dim mak point its fatel. theas masters train there mind and body behind closed doors developing unherd of skills. look at what we have seen showlin monks doing even now. no teacher is going to teach you this with a concence its like handing out a loaded gun registerd to the teacher! dim mak is not for sporting events its to save your life. the fienix fist has no mecy.

• 75 mike // Jan 26, 2008

  one touch one kill now or later i have seen it.

• 76 Hugo Olivares Mila // Feb 13, 2008

  Good Day Richard C. Bauer I had buy your book and is on the way! Any way before i read the wonderful book i wonder one thing! Do you had read the books of Master , Dr Pier Tsui-Po ? If yes Did you get good inspirations on his books? I wonder because I read somewhere that Dr Pier Tsui-Po said that many of the books out there didn’t mention the points of Dim Mak right, or something like that!?

  Any way any comments of Dr Pier Tsui-Po books it would be nice! And do you have plan on read them ( if you have not) before writing another Dim Mak book?

  http://www.goldenlion.com.au/home/dim_mak.htm

  Thank you and have a nice day!

  PS. I had been done a interesting thread in the Shen Men Tao Forum http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=427

• 77 Richard C. Bauer // Feb 14, 2008

  Dear Mr. Mila,

  Thank you for your post, and for your kind words concerning my humble little book.

  Regarding Dr. Pier Tsui-Po… he has written a few articles on Dim-Mak, which appeared in INSIDE KUNG FU magazine (1999, 2000 and 2006). Very Respectfully, I have seen his website, and read the four articles mentioned above, but I have never read any of his books.

  Over the years, there have been a large number of authors (25+) who have written books and magazine articles on Dim-Mak. To my knowledge, BLACK BELT magazine, etc., started running items on Dim-Mak as far back as 1965. But the subject really started to see heavy interest in print during the 1970’s, 1980’s and early 1990’s. Some of the folks who have written on this subject include (in no particular order) the following:

  • Bruce Lee
  • Ark Y. Wong
  • Bruce Tegner
  • Massad Ayoob
  • Doo Wai
  • Seiya Oyata
  • John Painter
  • Ed Parker
  • Erle Montaigue
  • Mike Kelly
  • Harry Cook
  • Dave Lowry
  • Patrick McCarthy
  • Brian Gray
  • George Dillman
  • Chris Thomas
  • Doc Fai-Wong
  • Rick Moneymaker
  • Tom Muncy
  • Rick Clark
  • William Cheung
  • Jim Lacy
  • Evan Pantazi
  • Jaime Clavo
  • Michael DePasquale, Sr.
  • Michael DePasquale, Jr.
  • Rick Osborne
  • H. Chris Schaefer
  • Scott Shaw
  • Stephen A. Skiver
  • Linda Woodward
  • William Durbin
  • George Alexander
  • Jane Hallander
  • Plus many, many more…

  This is only a partial list of folks I am aware of. There are many others. The above list is simply a representative sampling of modern authors, and should not be taken as an endorsement of any particular artist. In my humble opinion, some of the material was worth reading – other material was not. In that aspect, I do agree with Dr. Tsui-Po.

  Hope the above helps,

  Rick

• 78 Hugo // Feb 14, 2008

  Thank you so much Rick for a fast and good answer! You are very kind!

  I wonder if you have plans on reading Dr. Tsui-Po books?

  God Bless you my friend Rick from the heart a humble Hugo.

• 79 Richard C. Bauer // Feb 14, 2008

  Hi Hugo,

  I have an extensive collection of material on Dim-Mak… including a number of original chinese source books from the 1800’s. Of the material currently in print, I would strongly recommend Erle Montaigue’s 2-volume Encyclopedia of Dim Mak. In my humble opinion, it is excellent.

  All the best,

  Rick

• 80 Hugo // Feb 14, 2008

  Thank you Rick I had buy that book long time ago, in fact my first book about Dim Mak but I found it that it have just to much points so I give the book to the library, so I and poeple can read it when they want!

  Honest of all the books about Dim Mak in English that I know I belive you book is the best one in the world, I get the book today or tomorrow then I write the good comments, the other book That is also on my mind sometimes to times is ISBN-10: 0646404814 but well I belive I buy all Dr. Pier Tsui-Po books next year!

  PS. Rick I wonder if your book The Ancient Art of Life and Death: The Complete Book of Dim-Mak going to be in Spanish in the future? I would be very much happy because I was born in Cuba and was there until 13 year old (before I came to Sweden) so I can speak Spanish and love more to read in Spanish, it would be great and I sure going to have your book then whit my other best spanish books: La puerta del dragón by Chen Kaiguo and El mago de Java by Kosta Danaos! And also my brother that speak spanish and are 12 year old and have train shotokan karate will sure love the book(if published in spanish) and I am sure many people would love and buy it!

  PS. a good homepage (of the many)of Spanish Martial Art Books is: http://www.indicalibros.com/buscar.asp?idi=ES&Author=Fern%E1ndez+de+Castro%2C+Angel&idAlmacen=ESP&stroption=on&buscar.x=22&buscar.y=13

• 81 Richard C. Bauer // Feb 15, 2008

  Hi Hugo,

  Thank you for the kind reference to Grandmaster Walker and my book. In all fairness, all modern books owe everything to the old masters. It is their genius that is deserving of such high praise. As Patrick McCarthy once described, “[Within the Martial Arts,] we are all standing on the shoulders of giants…” in reference to the men and women of genius who originally devised these types of advanced techniques centuries ago. I was just very fortunate to co-write a humble little book with my Teacher. It is our sincere hope that it provides some measure of benefit to the martial arts community.

  Regretably, my publisher (Paladin) has no plans to translate the book into other languages. But perhaps one day… There are some wonderful books out there which I would love to see translated too.

  All the best,

  Rick

• 82 truth // Feb 19, 2008

  then mmabjj why the army, military ,FBI, teach it. some things r not meant to teach just to any one. plus u need to be responable about it. also ufc is a sport thing u can just use dim mak and walk away if u kill or really hurt someone to the point they can’t walk. cmon really it show u got alot to learn. and about why the army,etc teach it(and not just anyone,need to be a sgt etc) is bc ur life depends on it ,not like ufc that if u lose u got a second chance, and the ones that use it in ufc r careful.but its good that people think like that it keeps the art to those who know to who to pass it. plus they r different level of understanding it.

• 83 Hugo Olivares // Feb 20, 2008

  Do all the chinese kung fu styles had Dim Mak before? or is this just a rumor?

  Thanks Rick for your answer here and in private that we had have whit good heart , have a nice day ~

  Hugo Olivares Milá

• 84 Richard C. Bauer // Feb 22, 2008

  Hi Hugo,

  No. In the developmental history of the martial arts, not all Chinese Kung Fu styles had Dim Mak as part of their training.

  All the best,

  Rick

• 85 Hugo Olivares Milá // Mar 3, 2008

  Thank you Rick

  I know that Eagle Claw are good at Dim Mak!

  Please Rick can you tell me what is Empty Force the same as Dim Mak?

  http://www.answers.com/topic/empty-force?cat=entertainment

  I have hear in the book Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard by Kaiguo Chen about the tiger roar that came from sounds created by the body and that sound can kill, how can this be connected to Dim Mak when you don’t need to touch or point at some points on your body, i also hear that Voodoo Doctors or other witches can kill you whit the power of the spirits or whit the power of the mind! please Rick have you any commends to this invisible force that have different sources around the world?

  David “Shen” Verdesi’s website: http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1

  Thanks
  ~
  Hugo Olivares Milá

  [Added explanation for links. -Ed.]

• 86 Richard C. Bauer // Mar 4, 2008

  Hi Hugo,

  I am aware of both of the methods you are referring to. In my opinion, the subjects of empty force strikes and sound projection strikes belong in a different category than Dim Mak.

  Both subjects are highly controversial, and generate a lot of debate within the martial and scientific communities.

  All the best,

  Rick

• 87 Hugo Olivars Mila // Mar 5, 2008

  Thank you Rick that is the best answer!
  ~
  Regards
  ~
  Hugo Olivares Mila

• 88 Hugo Olivares Milá // Mar 11, 2008

  Hello once again Rick ( sorry if there is something wrong in my English, as a Cuban guy living in Sweden is hard to know so good so many languages)

  Now I understand and belive when you say that:
  empty force strikes …. belong in a different category than Dim Mak.

  So I just wonder how is that connected whit the answer I get from my ex-, former Teacher, Master Wong Kire Kit!?

  He Said to me in Question 7:

  http://wongkk.com/answers/ans05b/jul05-2.html

  A One-Finger Zen master can “dot” the energy points of an opponent from a distance of 36 steps

  Is not this Dim Mak? I mean here we read: energy points and “dot”

  Regards
  ~
  And Thank you so much for al the time!
  ~
  Hugo.

• 89 Richard C. Bauer // Mar 11, 2008

  Hi Hugo,

  In reference to question No. 7, via the hyperlink:

  “… of all the techniques that exist in martial art is the most powerful or the highest?”

  To which Master Wong replied:

  [Quote]

  In kungfu circles, there are what is called “the three ultimate arts”. They are:

  (i) One-Finger Zen,
  (ii) Strike-Across-Space Palm, and
  (iii) Marvelous Fist.

  All these three are Shaolin arts.

  A One-Finger Zen master can “dot” the energy points of an opponent from a distance of 36 steps.

  A Strike-Across-Space Palm master can strike an opponent from a distance of 72 steps.

  A Marvelous Fist master can strike an opponent from a distance of 108 steps.

  Strictly speaking it is not the technique that is important; it is the master’s internal force.

  Notwithstanding this, in our school what we consider the highest technique or skill is Sitting Meditation. We consider meditation a martial art technique or skill because it is taught in our Shaolin Kungfu and Wahnam Taijiquan. It is the highest because it leads to the greatest achievement any being can ever attained, i.e. Englightenment.

  [Unquote]

  In traditional Asian arts, dim mak is not the only method using or targeting acupoints. There are several. Master Wong is describing some of them. They follow the concept of Empty Force strikes.

  In my humble opinion, the highest level of the arts was best expressed by Sun Tzu 2,500 years ago:

  百戰百勝非善之善者
  不戰而屈人之兵善之善者

  BAI ZHAN BAI SHENG FEI SHAN ZHI SHAN ZHE
  BU ZHAN ER QU REN ZHI BING SHAN ZHI SHAN ZHE

  “…To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the [highest level] of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the [highest level] of skill.” (Griffith, p 77)

  Again… just my humble opinion. I am sure others may have differing views.

  All the best with your studies,

  Rick

• 90 Hugo Olivares Milá // Mar 12, 2008

  Hi there Rick…

  Now when you say:
  In traditional Asian arts, dim mak is not the only method using or targeting acupoints. There are several…

  I wonder if one of these several are this one?:

  Some Masters can do so their Chi run up to the top of the sword or staff so when hitting the enemies the enemies get the shock of Chi making him more weak! Is this Empty Force or Dim Mak?

  Another thing I don’t really understand is this:

  Some Masters call heal whit Chi coming out of their fingers, so how could this chi at the same time also be use to kill or hurt? I mean must the Master think bad so the energy be bad or what?

  Or would that bad energy of the Master hurt some one that is not in a bad energy state? I wonder because a Teacher of Yellow Bamboo here in Sweden told me sometime ago, that the energy of Empty Force could not harm you if you don’t have bad thoughts, so maybe this is the same in Dim Mak?
  http://youtube.com/watch?v=aGgB50SMdcA

  Thank you!
  ~
  Adios

• 91 Hugo Olivares Milá // Mar 12, 2008

  Dear Rick I had get some answer about some part of my question on private E-mail after putting the question here! So you don’t need to answer that, but if you want you are welcome!

  PS. here is a beautiful photo I belive of Dim Mak:

  http://www.dim-mak.de/bild02.gif

• 92 Hugo Olivares Milá // Mar 12, 2008

  Rick I Thank you and I, am Glad about your comments that you had been send me on e-mail about Dr. Pier Tsui-Po’s book, “THE TWO DRAGONS OF DIM MAK,” that you had went out and bought it and looked at it this weekend.

  So after seen careful the contents of the book, and all that I had been learn from you Rick in this Homepage and on private E-mails, I had decide to not buy Dr. Pier Tsui-Po books!

  I remember the answer i get in the Shen Men Tao forum by Doc Stier there he said, ( someting like) that is not wise to learn Dim Mak from a book, but that a book should be just for information! That what i had said and say for the last time: How Much I would like a book call something like ” Introduction to Dim Mak wonders” There you learn the history, philosophy, healing art of Dim Mak ther you don’t need to know the ingredients of the formula or were the points are ( some chart of the front or back of the body of the most dangerous points of Healing or Hurt point would be good but is not so much necessary in my opinion, for those who wants they can read your book Rick!)

  Rick have you any plans or comments about teaching Dim Mak online? Just like some Masters do! for example:
  Dr Pier TSUI-PO
  http://www.dimmakworld.com/?Online-lessons&pageContentId=14
  Honest I feel Dim Mak is to sacred to teach lessons over the Internet to anyone!

  PS. here are videos of Dr Pier TSUI-PO
  http://youtube.com/watch?v=3EgdsSfEyFU

• 93 Richard C. Bauer // Mar 14, 2008

  Hi Hugo,

  In reference to your recent posts, I respectfully would offer the following thoughts and observations:

  Different systems and styles have different terms for different techniques. Some are the same – they are just called by different names. But also understand Hugo that some of these “methods” are more mythical than fact. I personally would not include the methods being described as dim mak. In the classic training sequences, the Old Master’s always stressed that some measure of physical action and physical contact was always required in dim mak.

  ** Some Masters can do so their Chi run up to the top
  ** of the sword or staff so when hitting the enemies the
  ** enemies get the shock of Chi making him more weak!
  ** Is this Empty Force or Dim Mak?

  Based on the old classics, this is another method of using Chi, Hugo. It is not Empty Force, and it is not really dim mak. I would consider this a Chi augmentation strike. Again, this is just my opinion.

  ** Some Masters call heal whit Chi coming out of their
  ** fingers, so how could this chi at the same time also
  ** be use to kill or hurt? I mean must the Master think
  ** bad so the energy be bad or what?…
  ** Or would that bad energy of the Master hurt some one
  ** that is not in a bad energy state? I wonder because
  ** [I was told] that the energy of Empty Force could not
  ** harm you if you don’t have bad thoughts, so maybe this
  ** is the same in Dim Mak?

  The concept of Empty Force consists of striking someone with a projection of Chi energy at a distance, in which no physical contact is made. This is not dim mak. In recent years (as well as in the past), a number of people have come forward, claiming in the Press to be able to strike people with Empty Force. But these same people have not been able to demonstrate this skill in controlled scientific settings. These types of media failures have called into question the legitimacy of these types of techniques, Hugo, and also brought along comparisons to magician tricks. It is one of the reasons why this area is so controversial.

  In Dim mak, all strikes are to the points. The acupoints are the access openings for reaching the meridian channels in the body. The healing arts use the same acupoints, but in a different way. The process is slightly different, but the acupoint centers are the same. All points can be used both to heal, and to harm. It is Yin and Yang. But it takes a true Master of the Art to do it correctly and consistently.

  In my humble opinion Hugo, energy is energy. It is not bad or good – it simply has a wavelength (like voltage or current) and a polarity (positive charge vs. a negative charge). In the standard classic, the NEI JING, it is the manner in which Chi is used which is significant, as well as the type of energy being used – not what the Master is thinking. Again, this is as the classics describe the conceptual uses. The Old Masters always stressed the role of Chi in dim mak.

  Chi, as an entity, though, has not been quantified by Western Scientific standards. A large number of people within the modern martial arts community view it as a myth. It is a very controversial subject in the arts.

  ** Rick I Thank you and I, am Glad about your comments
  ** that you had been send me on e-mail about Dr. Pier Tsui-
  ** Po’s book, “THE TWO DRAGONS OF DIM MAK,” that
  ** you had went out and bought it and looked at it this
  ** weekend.

  ** So after seen careful the contents of the book, and all that
  ** I had been learn… in this Homepage and on private
  ** E-mails, I had decide to not buy Dr. Pier Tsui-Po books!

  Since you mentioned our private discussion, Hugo, I will respectfully summarize what I told you off-line:

  Over the years, I have seen quite a few books on dim mak. All of them discuss point locations, and certain methods of using them. But I am unaware of any book which describes only the history and philosophy of dim mak – which is what my friend Hugo is most interested in finding. In order to help Hugo, I went out and bought THE TWO DRAGONS OF DIM MAK, and looked at it this past weekend. In Dr. Pier Tsui-Po’s book, he discusses the history of dim mak briefly (pp. 9-10); tying the development to Shaolin and Chang Shen-feng. This is a very common approach, I should note. Regrettably, the book does not have the extensive discussion of the history and lineage of dim mak, which Hugo is interested in seeing.

  In regards to the developmental history of the martial arts in asia, the subject is very complex, and very few records exist prior to 1900. In part, this was due to the oral tradition and record keeping practices. Not much was written down. In addition, three events happened in the past 100+ years which had devastating consequences on the martial arts: (i) The Boxer Rebellion (1899-1900), (ii) World War II in Asia (1937-1945), and (iii) Mao’s “Cultural Revolution” in China (1960’s).

  Prior to the Boxer Rebellion, there were a number of Asian styles that had dim mak. The Boxer Rebellion was a popular uprising against foreigners. Many of the Boxers (Chinese martial artists) believed that they could develop their Chi to the point they could stop bullets. The Boxer leaders convinced the Chinese Empress that they had divine spirit powers, and that China should go to war to wipe out all foreigners and forein influences. The Empress agreed, and threw her support behind the movement. With that Royal edict, martial artists across China rose up against the foreign colonial powers, who had been setting up “treaty ports” within China since the 1840’s. This popular uprising swelled in ranks, and ultimately included almost the entire Shaolin order, and members of almost every martial arts group in the Maritime Provinces. The Boxers united with local militia, and attacked the foreign troops. But their “invulnerability skills” did not seem to protect them, and the Boxer rebels were shot down by the tens of thousands. As the war progressed, the foreign troops hunted down all martial artists – shooting them on sight. They destroyed temples and martial libraries and so forth. Completely unnerved, the Chinese Government fled the capital, and struggled to make peace with the foreign armies. In order to end the war, they offered many concessions. One such concession was helping to hunt down the rebels. The Government placed a bounty on all martial artists (which was so loosely interpreted, it was used indiscriminantly), and thousands of “suspected rebels” were arrested and executed. As a result of the Boxer Rebellion and its aftermath, hundreds of thousands of Chinese martial artists were killed. In fact, some martial arts groups were decimated to the verge of extinction.

  During World War II, the Japanese troops also suppressed the study and practice of martial arts. In the occupied areas, martial arts were prohibited. Anyone caught practicing a martial art were arrested, severely punished, and often killed. In the final years of the war, the Allied bombings also heavily contributed to the losses.

  The final round of record destruction came during Mao’s “Cultural Revolution.” Mao outlawed many forms of traditional martial arts, calling them subversive. Millions of books were confiscated and burned in huge bonfires. Thousands of martial artists were arrested and sent to re-education camps, and/or shot.

  This is one of the reasons why so little exists today Hugo. Much of it has been destroyed. Fortunately, some of the Masters survived the war periods. What we know today largely comes from them.

  ** I remember the answer i get in the Shen Men Tao forum
  ** by Doc Stier there he said, (someting like) that is not wise
  ** to learn Dim Mak from a book, but that a book should be
  ** just for information!

  In my humble opinion, books can be very valuable resources to learning… but there is no substitute for a teacher, and a lot of hard work and training.

  ** [What is your opinion] …about teaching Dim Mak
  ** online?…

  The internet can be a wonderful source of information, Hugo, just like a book or a DVD. But in my opinion, internet “distance learning” also has its limits. To properly learn a complex and physically demanding subject, such as a martial art, and to learn it correctly, requires a lot of hard work, dedication, and time, as well as an instructor. Then practice, practice, practice.

  I hope the above is helpful. It simply reflects my opinion. I will sign out now and leave the discussion for others.

  All the best in your training,

  Rick

• 94 Hugo Olivares Mila // Mar 14, 2008

  Thank you Rick is a very good answer from you like always, you are really a good heart man and Master!

  I going to print out all this conversation so I study more in deep!

  ** Regrettably, the book does not have the extensive discussion of the history and lineage of dim mak, which Hugo is interested in seeing.

  That is truth! You had became to know me very well my Friend Rick and my apologies to mention our conversation on private E-mails, well from now on it be just between us, Rick!

  I am just a wondering martial artist that feels good to read “mystery things” like Dim Mak and others stuff, from all the world( but love more Taoism, Daoism “stuff or magic”) of what people call “magic”

  **In regards to the developmental history of the martial arts in asia, the subject is very complex, and very few records exist prior to 1900. In part, this was due to the oral tradition and record keeping practices. Not much was written down.

  Thank you Rick!
  That is why I also don’t found a very good book that explain the old roots of Martial arts history of philosophy, healing etc that were before Tai Chi

  It is very sad that many of this books are gone, sure many had Dim Mak information like for example:
  What Zhang Wuji said in Shaolin Wahnam forum:
  The title is 《国术概论》 by 吴图南
  (publisher unknown, date circa 1930 – 1940)

  It is said by many to be the last word on the development of Chinese martial arts (no just wushu or kungfu) in China. The author spent years travelling throughout China and visited the various sites of origin, such as Chen village for Taijiquan, Wudang Shan, and I believe Shaolin Temple. Until he passed away at 108, he was known as the greatest living expert on Taijiquan (his grandmaster was Yang Luchan himself).

  I would send it to you but it is not even available in my country. I have been looking high and low for it myself.
  http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2551

  Rick do Master Erle Montaigue get the oral information from his Wudang Grandmaster when he say:
  Venerable Enlightened Zhang Sanfeng used to use Dim Mak to kill prisons?

  Do the Master of Dim Mak know how to use Dim Mak to any animal like dogs, bears etc?
  ~
  Thank You
  ~
  And please all that read remember to respect Rick, and not write here what it had been said on private e-mails!
  ~
  Hugo

• 95 Hugo Olivares Milá // Apr 2, 2008

  Hello Rick!

  Rick please can you give us, some comments about the relationship between Dim Mak and Fa Chin (Explosive Energy) and Nei Kung (Internal Skill)?

  Thank you very much!

• 96 Simon // Apr 12, 2008

  From my own research Dim Mac does exist. In some Chinese provinces it was considered as the highest skill in martial arts. Hiting your opponent without raising your hand; putting off a candle by projecting your energy towards it ; lining peolpe up and having someone call a number then stricking the first person in the line without hurting him or anybody in the lime but knoking out the person whose number you called in the line. There was a Chinese master from the early 20th century who was so good at it that they used to call him two days. Because all the people who challenged him were dead after two days because of his poison hands. He would pile up bricks and have you pick any under the first one then he would hit the top one and not smash any except the one that was picked. Those were Neigong Grand Masters. To be a Neigong grand Master you had to be able to perform about 120 miraculous acts that only Grand Masters could perform.

• 97 Hugo Olivars Mila // Apr 13, 2008

  Thank you Simon for your comment! I wonder what are the name of that Chinese master from the early 20th century?
  Thank you….

• 98 Ryan // Apr 25, 2008

  To the owner of this website,

  Thank you for making this information available.

  And to all that have posted comments,
  I have enjoyed reading everything you all have written.

  To Mr. Richard Bauer,
  your replies have been very informative, it’s nice to see an author like yourself take time out to respond back and share his knowledge.

  I have some questions for you if you do not mind since you have so much knowledge about martial arts in general.

  Author of this site please excuse my off the subject question,
  but I didn’t know how else to contact him.

  If you would like,
  you can contact me personally if that’s possible,
  so I don’t take up space for others.

  I have been searching for a master in the ancient art of Qigong, and I have found your reference of Chinese History very informative why it has been so hard for me to find an authentic master of that art.

  If you have any help or could be of assistance I would appreciate it very much.

  I live in Daytona Beach, Florida…
  I don’t even know if you know anyone here,
  but maybe you know of someone who would.

  Thank you for your time,
  - Ryan

• 99 Mike B // Apr 30, 2008

  I realize some people don’t believe in the art of Dim Mak.
  But I have seen it with my own eyes and had my legs go
  numb with a touch to my forehead A slight touch.
  Now i believe in Dim Mak. This art is not for someone
  like a loose cannon. You must respect people not to
  abuse this art. Also Intent, vibratory sounds, emotions even colors
  can be used. My teacher is a Buddist Lama so i’m fortunate
  to use this art for self defence only.
  Sincerly Mike

• 100 Hugo Olivares // May 1, 2008

  Wow Mike!

  The Lama Art is really powerful.
  But is hard to find information or books about the Dim Mak of Lama Kung Fu so i am glad that you had posted at least your comment!
  Here are some good links:
  http://www.lamakungfu.org/
  PS. i don’t know if this book had information about Dim Mak?:
  http://www.ryukyu.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RBP&Product_Code=18OKFO817

  Thanks
  ~
  Regards,

  Hugo

• 101 Hugo Olivares Mila // May 3, 2008

  Good Day because we before talk about my ex former Teacher Grand Master Wong Kiew Kit, i belive this could be a interesting video to see! Here Grand Master Wong Kiew Kit, applies a gentle touch of Dim Mak:

  http://wongkk.com/video-clips-3/weapons/sword/dim-mark.html

  PS. Ryan i found 3 schools, that i belive are the best for you, see here:
  http://www.pailum.biz/contact.htm
  http://home.cfl.rr.com/whitedragon/index.html

  Ryan your coments are welcome, you see i don’t know if White Dragon use Dim Mak, but here is one that sure do, and is near you live, in Ocala Florida:
  http://www.sifudavidgarcia.20fr.com/index.html

  Regards,

  Hugo.

• 102 Fearshogun // Jun 5, 2008

  Thanks Rick you are a doing a good job. I have not read all the posts but with the little I have read you are doing a good job. I am rather surprised at your control of emotions which is very good. As for MMABJJ….. What I dont know does not exist is his motto. The other might be he believes his style is better than any other style.

• 103 Hugo Olivares Mila // Jun 6, 2008

  […]take your eyes off your opponent….point out that dim mak does not actually signify “death touch” ….[…]

  Magic people can look at some one and that person will die!

• 104 dana // Jun 6, 2008

  can’t reference to acupuncture and chinese medical theory validates any of this. you can quote studies that say it seems to have an effect, but there are just as many, if not more, that report otherwise.
  http://www.skepdic.com/acupunc.html

• 105 joe // Jun 14, 2008

  dim mak translated more literally would be ” pick pulse”

• 106 joe // Jun 14, 2008

  “By definition, dim mak operates on arteries, which are continuous and span the entire body. Yes, some pressure points happen to be located along these arteries. No, this does not make dim mak synonymous with pressure point striking or grappling.”

  that would correlate with my translation there isent a pressure point on every arterie but theires a pulse in everyone of them

  and as for the validity of of dim mak it is universally accepted in the east (at least thats the way i took it growing up in hong kong ) as a skill that once exsisted just like the skill of jumping from tress i.e. the wonderful flying of “hidden dragon” also known as “hing gong” the “light technique” and other legendary skills i.e. 18 arhats of soalin training and leaving indentations on solid brick ground !! mythological maybe but all myths stem from something …

• 107 Hugo Olivares Mila // Jun 15, 2008

  many skills joe but maybe the highest a dim mak master can do is to stike points whitout touching the person or animal or maybe even the plant or tree?

  Regards

• 108 Ivar // Jun 19, 2008

  As long as people are dumb and believe nonsense the mysterious bullshit techniques exist. They buy books and attend seminaries and pay big pucks for it.
  It’s only sad that most of the dumb people are together in martial arts schools where even greater fools, called “masters” teach them fairytale stuff and all the fools are paying lot of money for this crap. When they go home late at night they still get beaten up by the thugs who have never learned any martial arts.
  It’s the fighting spirit that is the core of everything.

• 109 Fearshogun // Jun 19, 2008

  Ivar I dont believe calling names tackles the question being discussed hear. Every Technique has it counter, that is why there is attack and defense. Those who learn any form of style and get beaten out there by hoodlums who dont know “jack” about any form of style are just not practising what they have been taught. The difference between a Mach 10 and an uzi is the person behind it. Let us not insult other peoples believe. Someone may also not see your believe in the style u practise. We might even argue that if you have defended yourself successfully against any hoodlum who knows nothing about your style, the coincidence may just be that they were as ignorant as those u tend to insult. I have seen Black belts being beaten before just because they dont seem to understand what they have learnt. I trust we all have something to learn form each others style and that is how and why there are all different sort of martial arts out there.

• 110 Hugo Olivares Mila // Jun 19, 2008

  My Friends -

  INTELLIGENCE is what is all about it !
  ~
  Regards
  ~
  Hugo
  .

• 111 Someguy // Jun 28, 2008

  I don’t believe in the dim mak but, I do believe strikeing pressure points is effect but, the whole interupting the flow of your chi is alittle far’fetchd what i do think happens is it either scrambles or stops your brain waves to either the area struck or whatever it leads to.

  Just throwing my oppinion out there not arguing with anyone.

• 112 Someguy // Jun 28, 2008

  Also in regards to the UFC fighters, most of them are muscle headed idiots who wouldn’t know a real martial art if it kicked their butt, most of the fights turn into hugging contests laying on the ground.

  But some have talent like gracie he knew what he was doing.

• 113 Tristan From Philippines // Jul 4, 2008

  hey guys,teach me how to learn “death touch” or “dim mak” because i have many enemies in the Philippines…please,i want to knock them out…

• 114 james // Jul 6, 2008

  I have several of Earls books as well as a training video and the man is the real deal i have trained with a student of his who was my teacher named David Harris. I also have met Ashida Kim nice guy really easy to talk to but I do practice the dim-mak hand strikes as well as atemi- waza i have a disability were I cannot kick with my legs to well so i must concentrate on hand techniques alone. well it been grand

• 115 Xabat // Jul 21, 2008

  Searching on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed for documented instances of Commotio Cordis comes up with some interesting results.

  Additionally, Pulmonary Contusion has been known to cause a range of effects, including death. Not necessarilly directly upon suffering the injury, either.

  We could get into blunt trauma to the head and neck (among others) as well, but I don’t think that’s entirely relevant.

  I think we can agree that it /Is Possible/ to kill with a hand strike, whether open palm or a fist.

  After hunting around, though, I seem to come up with the same question: “What are we talking about here?”.

  Dim Mak has too many different meanings to too many different people to give a straight Yes or No. And apart from the direct translations, exact meanings and so forth, you also have to compete with the fact that we could either be talking about a direct translation or an interpretation of a concept.

  I apologise for this one, and to those that this next statement offends I ask that you be patient with me, but it’s much like the Bible. There are those who live the teachings within to the letter, and there are those that believe that it’s meant to be read with more of an imaginative or personal interpretation in mind.

  The letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law.

  The discussion of Dim Mak is in a similar state.

  Do the old masters tell us -exactly- what is happening, or do they give us a more poetic and artistic outline of a physiological happening?

  My thoughts are as follows:

  * Dim Mak has too many meanings and potential meanings to have it’s existance either confirmed or disproven definatively.

  * It is entirely possible to kill with a single hand strike. It is also possible that this death is immediate or delayed. However, the strength required to inflict sufficient injury to result in death is substantial to say the least. Reported deaths caused by Commotio Cordis are often attributed to sporting injuries, where the deceased has been struck with a blunt instrument (baseball bat) or some other fast-moving object (an extremely strong kick to a soccer ball, for example.) Pulmonary Contusion is often attributed to some form of motor vehicle accident. There’s no case, as far as I can find (Please Note: Limited research here) of a person suffering either of these conditions from anything remotely like a light touch.

  * Logically, if one were to possess a degree of understanding of the human body and it’s functions, the correct application of force in the correct area could result in the desired “Delayed Death” result. However, your knowledge of the human body and it’s limitations in certain vital areas would need to be nothing less than heroic. Even then, the variations in the human physiology from person to person would result in variations in effect from the same strike from person to person. It can never be precise because you can never know your target’s body that perfectly.

  In summary:
  It is possible to kill instantly with a hand strike. It is also possible to cause a delayed death from a hand strike. Substantial strength is required in either case. Whether or not this constitutes as “Dim Mak”, I’ll leave to your own interpretation. I’m very much a “spirit of the law” kind of thinker. My vote is a yes.

• 116 Chris (the student) moon // Jul 27, 2008

  YOU FOOLS KNOW NOTHING OF THE ANCIENT ART OF COMBAT. I COULD KILL YOU IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE WITH ONE STRIKE TO THE TEMPLE AND YOU WOULDN’T EVEN KNOW IT. THE ONLY WARNING YOU WOULD HAVE IS SUDDENLY SHITTING YOUR PANTS FOLLOWED BY A SIEZURE AND BLEEDING FROM YOUR
  EARS , YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW TO FIGHT WITH DIM MAK ASK MY MASTER.

• 117 Hugo Olivares Mila // Jul 28, 2008

  Hello Chris! I wonder who is your Master? Bye bye Chris….

• 118 Justin // Jul 29, 2008

  By master you meen the videos you watch off of youtube. I know so many people like you that claim to be black belt or martial artists, but you just watch to many kung-fu movies and you hope people will be afraid of ou if you tell them you have a black belt, POSH.

• 119 Hugo Olivars Mila // Jul 30, 2008

  nowdays kids can have black belt too!

• 120 China Jim // Jul 31, 2008

  I agree about Earl i have a few of his books hes the best I know of teaches basics and advanced techniques nothing mystical about it just good body mechanics and science

• 121 Richi // Aug 4, 2008

  Greetings! (Ha! I just figured out the 10+8 field)

  I’m 56 years old. I have studied various martial arts since I was 16… About as long as I have studied computers (and YES, we did have computers back then!) but I am no means to be considered even very skilled practitioner.

  I first learned of Dim Mak in 1968 from Count Dante’s publication when another student introduced me to the subject matter. He considered this yet another ‘Silver Bullet’ to add to his arsenal of fighting techniques.

  I post today, not to praise Dim Mak or debunk the style but I would ask you if you think this technique doesn’t work, then why waste your time debunking it or if you, like my long ago friend believe in it, why would you wish to learn it?

  Ok, I’m done pontificating (hmmm sound like male bovine deficating, dosn’t it?) and I shall give you my opinion…

  As my Sensei, Sifu or ‘Kick My Butt Instructor’ would say, technique is like driving. Your milage depends upon your driving habits.

  Cheers!
  Richi.

• 122 Hugo Olivares Mila // Aug 4, 2008

  Good to have you here Richi, your presence of a adult feels good, like ying!

• 123 Hugo Olivares Mila // Aug 4, 2008

  like ying yang

• 124 Mike // Aug 4, 2008

  Who needs to know Dim Mak? Maybe a few of my students who are in Iraq serving our country, the U.S.A., and law enforcement agents that are serving our public and that’s about all I can think of. Is it real? Who wants a to be the recipient of a Dim Mak demonstration? These are the real questions about Dim Mak. I know a few of these techniques but I will not teach them to anyone else unless they can prove to me that they may actually need it. Otherwise, just go buy a gun, it’s way more effective.

• 125 Tristan // Aug 5, 2008

  hey master Mike…teach me the dim mak please…i have many enemies here in the Philippines..people here are bad guys..they always punch and kick me…please teach me, master Mike…

• 126 Hugo Olivares Mila // Aug 5, 2008

  Whaaaatttt?

• 127 Dan // Aug 5, 2008

  I agree a gun is better but the practice of the din mak art could cause some one to learn it just to kill…. I really dont get why people want to learn it…

• 128 Hugo Olivares Mila // Aug 5, 2008

  Dimmak is not only to kill! The genuine Masters use Dim Mak just because they don´t want to kill, if the kill must be the last thing he can do to survive, then he sure use but that is rare,nowdays and even before, of cource the are som Masters that use Dim Mak to kill but this are not “genunine” Dim Mak Masters in my opiniom, Dim Mak Masters were and are more interesting in healing ( Dim Mak can be used and is use almost more to heal, than to harm) In old days Dim Mak Masters were Doctors!

• 129 tim // Sep 4, 2008

  hey yeah i do a lot of reading and i know how to get that ability but i dont have the time or stuff to do that~

• 130 Hugo Olivares Mila // Sep 4, 2008

  hello, to do what?

• 131 wando roe // Sep 19, 2008

  Hi i completly agree with dim mak as a phisical effect but there are other explanations for the dim mak effects.
  the plasibo effect.
  when uv had a head ache, have u noticed somthing, its fine its pretty much gone, u dont notice it.
  one of ur mates walkes in,
  “hey, hows ur head”
  immediatly the pains back,
  im sure many of u can remember somthing like this happening.
  peoples minds are facinating, u can perswade someones body to make them selves ill or even die.
  Witch doctors in Afrika. they dance around for a few seconds burn stuff, says stuff. point a stick at a guy say hes going to die tonight. im not joking, if he belives in the witch docter, hes just gonna go into his bed lie down and die.
  if any one of u are going to try and arguee that that is becausse of somthing else or he didnt realy die i wanna see proof for your claim.
  I have also heard that most people bitten by a nonpoisonous snake fall ill with poisining effects.
  id love to put some for mine but ur going to have to take my word for it.
  Still the fact remains, a mystic could kill by doing fuck all, the people kill themselves. this has been witnised.
  the same princible is applied for sceptics in tia chi, if u think ur stronger, you will be stronger

  just to add i have not trained dim mak or poinsons and i know very few leathel strikes. if any one could post a easy technique advice or even a link to a good site with the above i would be very gratefull

  best luck to all

• 132 Mindlezz1 // Sep 19, 2008

  Dim Mak isnt a realistic defense system. Any idea of using cavity presses to subdue an opponent will be quickly thrown out the window whey they start kickin your a$$. The only effective cavity press will be used by someone like John Chang. Extreme control of chi

• 133 wando roe // Sep 23, 2008

  tbh if he can do it anyone whose trained can. plus realistic tends to mean “WTF i dont get it” if u cant see that these strikes will work then think about it harder. no one here is saying they can kill with a feather touch. some are just saying it hurts or it is a more precice and reliable way of knocking someone out. a grunt in a bar fight knows he has to hit the head but someone trained in dim mak knows wich part of the head to hit.

• 134 juan covo // Sep 27, 2008

  I had a stomach congestion that was troubling my respiration,numbness in my left arm and headaches. My uncle who is a doctor told me it was the stomach channel and that I needed some herbs and acupuncture. When I consumed the herbs, I started feeling much better. I think that the Dim Mak is a secret technique and difficult to apply in real combat.

• 135 wando roe // Sep 27, 2008

  somthig like that is harder to apply but if u slower someone down it should be easier, plus u can apply ten techniques, if theres a 10% chance u hit each time u should win

• 136 Richi // Oct 2, 2008

  Greetings,

  People say Dim Mak is a secret technique. Hmmm, it seems a lot of people know about this “Secret” technique. And then some talk about “lethal” strikes while others talk about the healing properties and some others talk about … well it goes on, ad infinitum.

  By now, it should be obvious the even the casual practioner that Dim Mak is a Qi (Chi) {Ki} based system based on an understanding of meridians and such (far being beyond my limited abilities to explain) and would take many, many years to fully understand.

  Sigh… If you want to kill, use a gun, rock, stick bomb or if you want to heal then go to a good medical school.

  Personally, I’d prefer you went to Med School. When I was in the Navy I needed a shot in the butt every time I came back from shore leave. Good Corp Men are hard to find.

• 137 Lee // Oct 5, 2008

  I am originally from the UK but have lived in China for the last 5 years. I suffer from a form of painful arthritis, and I have used many different types of pain relief. Accupuncture is indeed a fantastic (and natural) way of combatting the pain. It WORKS period. Dam Mak is just another way in which these points in the body can be manipulated. These and Chinese medicines have worked here for thousands of years. I have actually seen a woman give birth by way of a C-Section, and she was treated using accupuncture and small electric pulses. She smiled througout the whole process without even a whimper.
  If Westerners cannot explain something using their own logic they simply dismiss it.

• 138 mike // Oct 5, 2008

  Hi Lee look into bee sting therapy, they use honey bees then
  sting themselves in the affected area
  mike

• 139 jolik // Oct 11, 2008

  To tristan : This is your problem….dim mak is not necessary a art of destruction and attacking it’s more an assasinate art….a story about Bruce Lee’s death is that he been killed by a dim mak old shaolin practicer..I understand that bad guys pissed you off….but you don’t have to kill them:)…

• 140 wando roe // Oct 15, 2008

  We may never know what killed him but if it was dim mak then the chances are he had a good reason to be killed. highly trained assasins dont just kill people cause they thought there last pic was a little cheesy. i mean its either a very long prison scentence or death so it will be somhing meaning full. plus hed have to be damn stupid not to see a doctor after getting poked by a shaolin. he would have known the risks. he was just to aragont to accept it i reckon.

• 141 smithy 101 sik cu*t // Oct 27, 2008

  i rekon it all true az

• 142 RLS // Nov 6, 2008

  “These dogmatic BJJ nazis remind me of creationists. It doesn’t matter how well you explain things, they won’t listen.”

  Ironic. Because often BJJ nazis are more like the atheists, and the traditional practitioners more like creationists; the Trads back up their statements with philosophical and supernatural ambiguities while the BJJ nazis demand proof.

  For instance:

  Arguments for chi/qi/dim mak/teh real kung fu:

  1. The rules in MMA are too restrictive for our martial art to work.

  Return argument from modern martial artists: What rules exactly are causing you grief?

  Trads change the argument.

  2. Our martial art is not a sport; it is too deadly for the ring, it’s designed for the street/battlefield

  Return argument from the Moderns: If it works on the street it should work in the ring under no-holds barred or limited-rules.

  Note: having a one-on-one fight empty handed is already an established rule for safety purposes; if rules are thrown out the window, there’s no reason one fighter couldn’t pull out a gun and kill the other, and use that as an argument that the opponent’s martial art was crap.

  Note 2: If your martial art will not work in the ring because of the rules, it means that it must be completely made up of small joint manipulation, biting, gouging, strikes to the spine, neck and back of the head. These techniques put together would not equal a street-effective martial art.

  STREET VS SPORT

  The street vs sport argument is invalid. There are a set of basics which can increase your chances of survival. If you’re not well-versed in the simplest and most high-percentage techniques, you will not have a delivery system for your advanced nerve strikes / dim mak, etc.

  GOOD SET OF BASICS vs TECHNIQUE FOR EVERY SITUATION / PREDICTING YOUR OPPONENT’S MOVES

  However, once you have those basics down, you won’t need anything fancy. This is what the UFC and MMA in general have shown. The most basic punches, kicks and takedowns can be improved to a level such that you don’t need any kind of fancy, low-sucess-rate techniques.

  It’s better to know three techniques and be phenomenally good at them than to know a thousand techniques for every situation. Something I’ve noticed from studying BJJ recently is that even if you know exactly what is coming, if your opponent is more skilled, there’s still nothing you can do about it. You don’t need to catch your opponent by surprise in any way; you just need to be able to control them.

  After all, boxers know they’re going to be knocked out by a punch to the face. That knowledge doesn’t automatically mean you can avoid it.

  P.S. I laughed when I read the stuff about Dim Mak being a higher-percentage knockout than a punch to the jaw. The stuff that guy (forget his username, can’t be bothered scrolling up) wrote about not punching the jaw because it is hard is ridiculous.

• 143 wando roe // Nov 6, 2008

  he didnt say that.
  he said that a dimmak punch to the jaw was more reliable as it hit the most effective point on the jaw. to be honest there are two types of dim mak. there are the unreliable pressure point attacks that are famous and blown out of proportion. and then there is locating the opposet side of the part of the brain you need to damage for a reliable knock out.
  can I add here almost everyone here is writting about what they think. noone has written about what they have done. this probably indicates that the average dim mka practitioner does not piss about on forums and probably is not interested in cage fights. and dont forget noobs of an art always say there masters but then there art doesnt work cause they dont know it and then they end up losing and making there art look shit.

• 144 RLS // Nov 7, 2008

  A dim mak punch to the jaw? As opposed to any non-chinese MA properly executed punch to the jaw which accomplishes the same thing?

  He didn’t say that a Dim Mak punch to the jaw was better. He said that any Dim Mak punch was better than a punch to the jaw. This comment I have a problem with.

• 145 wando roe // Nov 9, 2008

  I understand that your art/s works fine. but dim mak is not anything special. other than its reputation of mystic effects (ballshit or over rated id say) the only difference is they focused on a different way of thinking.
  have you been told to punch at a point on the jaw and why that part?
  and wich person is this i search through and find several comments on punches to jaws?

• 146 Thunderbird // Nov 29, 2008

  Dim Mak would be less powerful and practical than just hexing someone

• 147 George Crosland // Dec 12, 2008

  I came across this forum by accident. I am really enjoying all the different comments on Dim Mak. Rather than go threw all the explanations and make comments I am going to give you my story instead.
  When I was 8 years old 2 major events happened to me.
  1 – My mother taught me the gift of healing hands. The skill of holding or pressing injuries until the pain goes away.
  2 – I started getting my but kicked all the time at school because I was chubby and did not fit in socially.
  Both of these lead to years of studying martial arts and deep tissue repair. I am now 41 years old and and a Master of
  Acupressure. My journey of Martial arts is as follows. Judo 1 year, Wrestling 1-year, Tai-Chi (Traditional fighting style) 25 Years, Chito Ryu-short stance Karate 21 Years, Shotokan-Long stance Karate 19 Years, Med evil hand to hand combat weaponry 31 years, Ninjutsu 5 Years, Boxing 2 years, Iron fist Kung fu 2 years, Dim Mak 9 years, Art of the Snake (Dim Mak in its true form – per my research) 2 years.
  The more I studied the human body for martial arts the more I saw the holistic relationship with Acupressure. 4 years ago I was rear ended by an Astro van traveling at 110km, My little Nissan was in neutral, this saved my life. Using my own Acupressure I was back to work in 6 months. I have hundreds of major tears in my body and thousands of micro tears that have all turned into scar tissue. My family Dr had never saw so much soft tissue damage and never saw anyone get back to work so quickly after such an accident. This lead to a ton of interest by other people to use my Acupressure on them. Before this I was working on family and friends all my life. Threw results on myself and others I now have a extremely successful Acupressure business. This is leading to the Dim Mak conversation you folks have been having. I use my fingers, wood, marble and metal Acupressure tools on the human body on a daily basis. I work on meridian points and damaged soft tissue to help the
  body heal itself. I have 100% customer satisfaction. I have helped tons of people get there life back when the western
  medical doctors and specialists have told my customers there was nothing else they could do for them. I am accredited in body systems. Circulatory, Respiratory, Muscular and Skeletal.
  Now that I have blasted you with my credentials and experiences I will explain what Dim Mak means to me.
  Dim Mak is the use of a spear hand attack (shuto). No fist, no palm, no elbow, no knee, no choke, no ju-jitsu, no kicks or
  grappling.
  There are key points on the body not all Meridian. That when stricken will have severe damaging effects.
  The shuto strike has to hit with tremendous force and extreme speed. We are talking 35km per hour at 600lbs per square inch.
  With all my years of acupressure, martial arts experience and research I have never found a point on the body that can be tapped or lightly stricken that will cause death or paralysis. However with the right speed, lbs of pressure and most important, Accuracy! You can kill immediately, or days later a person will die, you can cause paralysis, you can cause long term damage to internal organs. You make a guy pee blood for years, the list goes on. If you miss then your gonna take damage to your hand or worse your opponent is going to use your mistake as an opportunity to crush you. Dim Mak is very difficult to use during combat. However it can save your life if you are extremely out gunned by weight, youth and reach. I would never personally use Dim Mak on anyone unless I felt my life depended on it. During kumite I have used light Dim mak to non essential parts of the body. Hitting muscles on my opponent causing lots of pain and discomfort. Making it difficult for my opponent to concentrate due to pain. No long term damage just pain. Now this is kumite not mma. I would not play around in an
  mma fight this way. There are more rules in kumite that give allowances that you cannot take in an mma fight.
  This has been my personal experience and research. I hope it adds some flavor to your martial arts journey.

  Sincerely,

  George Crosland

• 148 Wando roe // Dec 13, 2008

  Can you teach me anything else please?
  if you can thanks very much.

• 149 Richard C. Bauer // Dec 13, 2008

  Dear Mr. Crosland,

  In reference to your post concerning this topic, you mentioned the following…

  “… My journey of Martial arts is as follows:”

  “… Dim Mak 9 years, Art of the Snake (Dim Mak in its true form – per my research) 2 years.”

  Could you please detail why you consider the Art of the Snake to be Dim Mak in its “true form” – based on your research?

  Rick

• 150 Richard C. Bauer // Dec 13, 2008

  Dear Mr. Crosland,

  Further to your post, I would respectfully add the following comments:

  “The more I studied the human body for martial arts the more I saw the holistic relationship with Acupressure. …”

  In part, I would concur. Under the classic study of Dim Mak, Acupressure (Tui Na) was recognized and taught as part of the complete curriculum.

  “… I will explain what Dim Mak means to me.”

  “Dim Mak is the use of a spear hand attack (shuto). No fist, no palm, no elbow, no knee, no choke, no ju-jitsu, no kicks or grappling.”

  I would respectfully disagree. The striking patterns used in the full study of Dim Mak are not restricted just to the spear hand (shuto). There are a number of strikes, as well as kicks that are taught and are employed.

  “There are key points on the body not all Meridian, [that when struck] will have severe damaging effects…”

  Within the modern martial arts apprach to “pressure point” and “vital point” striking, I would agree. There are a number of anatomical weak areas of the body that are not related to acupuncture points, which are included today under the broader concept ional concept of “pressure points.” But this broadening of target areas was not the case in Asian Dim Mak material published and taught prior to the 1930’s. In the classical study of Dim Mak, the old masters would always say “all strikes are to the acupoints.” In fact, this was a Shaolin and Okinawan maxim of the martial aspects of this subject.

  “The shuto strike has to hit with tremendous force and extreme speed. We are talking 35km per hour at 600 lbs per square inch.”

  Such a strike would inflict a considerable amount of blunt trauma. But sheer kinetic force is not the sole basis of a Dim Mak strike.

  “With all my years of acupressure, martial arts experience and research I have never found a point on the body that can be tapped or lightly stricken that will cause death or paralysis. “

  In my professional experience, I would respectfully disagree. There are a number of strike patterns in Dim Mak which can be done, which do not require large amounts of contact pressure. These types of precision strikes require master level skill, and take years of hard study and practice to learn correctly.

  “However with the right speed, lbs of pressure and most important, [accuracy, you] can kill immediately, or days later a person will die, you can cause paralysis, you can cause long term damage to internal organs…

  I would also add that the outcome of a strike is dependent on the precision and skill of the martial artist.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 151 harbringer // Dec 29, 2008

  if you can believe that you can get knocked out by a single punch to the jaw, why is it so difficult to believe there are far more advanced techniques to achieve similar and deadlier results?

• 152 Darren // Dec 31, 2008

  Both sides of these arguments have valid points. Although it seems like trying to talk to the MMA/BJJ guys is like talking to a brick wall. No one that has posted here about the merits of Dim Mak has claimed it to be some mystical magical thing. They are just saying that if you have the skill to strike a sensitive area of the body, it will cause more damage than striking a non-sensitive area of the body. The whole argument of a knockout blow punch to the jaw proves the point of Dim Mak. If the attack was the only important part, and not the target, then why can’t you knock a guy out by punching him in the shoulder. The truth is the attack isn’t the most important part. You can have the strongest punch or kick in the world and if you hit your opponent in the shoulder it isn’t going to accomplish that much. But if you punch, kick, elbow, knee, chop, head butt, whatever to the jaw, throat, nose, eye, groin, brain stem, etc, it is going to have a stronger effect than hitting your opponent in the shoulder. If you can strike or grab a tendon, it will hurt more than muscle. If you can hit certain nerves or blood vessals you can cause more pain, potentially dizziness, or worse. So the target is more important than the attack. Call it what you want, dim mak, a pressure point, a sensitive area, a nerve center, a chi meridian, it all has the same conclusion, trauma to a sensitive area will cause more damage than a non sensitive area, or a specific target can cause a specific result, so why not try to learn what those sensitive areas are to improve your odds and skill in combat no matter what your attacking techniques are. Don’t get caught up with chi or TCM which was invented 5000 years ago and uses very abstract and poetic ways to communicate it’s principles. The principle of Dim Mak which is just a more in depth version of the principle behind more basic punching and kicking, is a specific action towards a specific target can cause a specific reaction. If you don’t believe me go smash your knee into the coffee table or bang your elbow into a kitchen cabinet and see if you can do a perfect cartwheel right after.

  Here is where the MMA/BJJ guys are right and wrong. Basic martial arts are easier to learn, so people that focus on the basics like MMA/BJJ/wrestling/boxing/kickboxing etc will be more efficient quicker. Also it seems that basic MA tend to do more full contact sparring and competing, so those practitioners are more used to those situations. Also learning gross motor movements are more likely to work in a real situation whether it is real combat or sport combat. Complex and fine motor movements go out the window if your fight or flight response kicks in and your adrenaline is going wild and your heart rate sky rockets. That is why most traditional martial artists that used to go into UFC got their ass kicked. Where I would argue that the MMA/BJJ guys are wrong is that your view of testing the effectiveness of martial arts is very limited. UFC,pride, etc are very limited at testing many aspects of martial arts. BJJ or any grappling on the ground is the worst possible thing you can do against multiple attackers, or attackers with weapons. If you ever watch the tv shows human weapon or fight quest, you can see the proof of this. Both shows have MMA guys that get sent to learn exotic MA and then get tested against students in those styles. The MMA guys totally failed and got their asses handed to them against the marine corp martial arts because the MMA guys were not trained in weapons and defense against weapons. The MMA guys also got schooled when they went up against Krav Maga. When they had to defend against multiple attackers they got demolished because they weren’t trained for it. My point isn’t that MMA or BJJ is bad. On the contrary I think the basics are the best way to start, build confidence and basic self defense skills. I love doing jujitsu, but if you never learn advanced techniques and are put in a situation that calls for advanced techniques you are at a disadvantage. Anyone that considers themselves a serious martial artist should learn how to attack and defend with firearms, knives, sticks or staffs, and how to handle multiple attacker situations. If you have two guys that are both masters of the basics, but only one has also mastered the advanced stuff, who has the advantage? But I agree with the MMA/BJJ guys that most practitioners of the more advanced esoteric arts suck at the basics, which means they’ll never be good at the advanced stuff if they haven’t absorbed the basics yet. But you guys need to realize that the people who truly have mastered the advanced stuff that you think is bullshido, don’t compete, they don’t sell books, they don’t sell videos teaching strangers these techniques, don’t put videos up on youtube, don’t go on tv to perform, and in general don’t want a lot of attention from people. The people that do all that stuff looking for popularity, publicity, financial gain, etc are usually frauds. The real deal generally only teach and demonstrate to trusted disciples. You may not believe or like that explanation but in my experience it is true. I don’t know if this is true or not, but I would venture to guess that the majority of people that do martial arts in the united states have no desire to enter full contact tournaments or competitions. I’ve been tempted in the past, but to be honest I don’t want to get my nose broken, teeth messed up, or show up to work with black eyes. My point being that just because some people don’t compete doesn’t mean they aren’t legitimate, or that just because someone does compete that they are legitimate. There are many MMA guys who have very little skill, but are just really well conditioned strong athletes. I think Brock Lesnar is an amazing athlete and I wouldn’t want to mess with him, but I also don’t think of him as a good martial artist. He has some good wrestling take down skills, but other than that he fights like a wild gorilla with no strategy or technique. It only works for him because he is so big and strong, not because it is a good style. I can name several other MMA guys from UFC and Pride that are really lousy martial artists, but are very popular. KIMO, Bob Sapp, Tank Abbott, Kimbo Slice. These guys have a little success from brute force. They have no skill or technique. They are able to dominate other unskilled fighters, but i’ve seen all of them beaten by smaller guys that had better skills.

  Another point i’d like to make. Even though fighting is a big component of martial arts, it isn’t the only component. Self development, health, spirituality, mental improvement are just a few of the very important aspects of a real martial art. MMA and some of the other basic martial styles completely ignore these other areas. They only address the physical and fighting aspect. That is so limited. If someone is practicing an internal art because they want to feel better and have better health, are you going to tell them they are wasting their time because they can’t fight. Can’t you see how narrow minded that is. How many people actually ever get in a real life threatening fight? It’s more common for people to have to defend themselves against back problems, carpal tunnel, arthritis, heart disease, tight joints. Guess what MMA is very inferior against those things compared to more traditional styles that practice static and dynamic forms as well as still and moving meditation.

  MMA guys open your minds up, there is so much more wonderful things about the martial arts out there beyond what you’ve experienced. On the other hand, you traditional guys, don’t have blind faith in what you do. Be wary of guys that are full of bullshido cuz there are a lot of them out there. Also don’t be afraid to test your skills against someone from a different style to see if you can actually use it.

  Anyways that’s my long winded opinion. Feel free to attack me and tear it apart, and twist my words around or take anything I said out of context.

• 153 GavJMN // Jan 10, 2009

  if dim mak doesnt work then that means accupuncture/accupresssure doesnt work, but these are 2 ancient skills for healing, aswell as dim mak being used to cause harm, the pressure points in all 3 of these are very close together and were probably discovered with in a short period of each other, dim mak being discovered first. the only question is, did accupressure get discovered in a fight using dim mak when 1 guy was it in a pressure point then say “oh thanks uve just sorted out my back pain”.

• 154 Jack L // Jan 10, 2009

  Yes, i assume so,
  dim mak was discovered by bodhidhama after just randomly jabbing prisoners, slaves and any other whathave you?
  I would imagine that he got other results other than pain and deaths.

• 155 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 11, 2009

  In ref to GavJMN’s post, I would respectfully add the following comments:

  ** “If dim mak doesn’t work then that means acupuncture
  ** /acupressure doesn’t work…”

  I would respectfully agree. From a conceptual stand-point, they are opposite sides of the same coin.

  ** “… the pressure points in all three of these are very close
  ** together and were probably discovered within a short
  ** period of each other, dim mak being discovered first… ”

  Modern archeological evidence, as well as the existing text evidence, shows the opposite occurred. The medical basis of accupoints were discovered and systematized first, and the martial applications came much later.

  In Chinese medical literature, the medical methods associated with acupuncture and acupressure date to around 200 BC, and the publication of the Hung Di Nei Jing (The Emperor’s Classic of Internal Medicine). In the 1970’s, excavations of the Mawangdui tombs at Silver Sparrow Mountain in China recovered complete acupuncture and herbology texts, as well as medical needles, in active use in 168 BC.

  The martial uses of striking acupoints first appear in Chinese literature during the late Tang Dynasty (@ 1100 AD)… but most likely pre-date that period by several hundred years.

  In reference to Jack L’s post, in which he mentions:

  ** “… dim mak was discovered by bodhidharma after just
  ** randomly jabbing prisoners…”

  Bodhidharma (or Ta Mo… aka Da Mo in Mandarin, and Dat Mor in Cantonese) arrived in China around 520 AD. While his contributions to the Chinese Martial Arts are immense, he was not responsible for dim mak.

  The Chinese credit the origins of dim mak to Chang Shen Fang, the traditional creator of Tai Chi Chuan, who lived during the thirteenth century. But there are earlier records which discuss the results of select strikes to accupoint centers, with the intention of causing trauma. The earliest strike pattern observations were probably random. But by the eleventh century, these experiments were precise and intentional.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 156 Carlton // Feb 16, 2009

  Ummmmm…… ignorance is bliss. Dim Mac is legit. hitting these points in succession have an adverse effect on the nerve endings, shutting down limbs, breaking bone or shutting down organs. all the effects happening to the body after the strike cause the effect. A crock, I think not. i know ninjitsu(aikijujutsu) and the same things apply. I have felt smaller scale moves and was even knocked out for a few seconds with a poke to my arm and a light slap to the back of my head. Prove that evidence wrong.

• 157 RLS // Feb 16, 2009

  Unfortunately, Carlton, it’s not up to anything to prove your evidence wrong. Especially since you have provided no evidence at all.

  All you have provided are more claims, and the burden of proof lies on the claimant.

  Otherwise, I claim that countless masters have tried their Dim Mak on me and failed, and this claim has just as much legitimacy as yours.

  Lastly, Ninjutsu and Aikijujutsu are two different arts. If anything, Ninjutsu is bastardised JJJ / AJJ.

  As for shutting down organs…..hah.

• 158 RLS // Feb 16, 2009

  As for Darren, excellent argument. Except for this tidbit here:

  “UFC,pride, etc are very limited at testing many aspects of martial arts. BJJ or any grappling on the ground is the worst possible thing you can do against multiple attackers, or attackers with weapons. If you ever watch the tv shows human weapon or fight quest, you can see the proof of this.”

  Firstly, one on one combat is the only situation in which you have a chance of complete victory over your opponent. In a multiple attacker situation, the best option is escape, and knocking them out is in no way a priority.

  Secondly, almost every BJJ gym will have a weapons curriculum. It is a required part of the training syllabus at my gym, along with standup striking. This is the case in the vast majority of BJJ gyms which are labelled as such rather than MMA.

  Lastly, you cite Fight Quest and such shows as evidence for this argument. The fact is, the producers of these shows cannot in any way allow defamation of an art. Their hosts effectively HAVE to get their asses handed to them in order to stop an uproar from the practitioners of that art.

  For an example of such, watch the Human Weapon Ninjutsu episode. Even after they defeated and drew even with two extremely high-ranking practitioners who had been training specifically in those areas for a preposterously longer peroid of time, they still claimed the art was effective. They had no choice.

  Your entire argument, however, seems geared to insinuate that there is an art better than MMA or BJJ for all-round combat. This is simply not the case, assuming the BJJ/MMA practitioner has been pressure testing his techniques.

  As for weapons training, it should be incorporated smoothly into everything else. After all, the same biomechanical basics apply.

  Reality-Based Self-Defence is also a part of our BJJ syllabus at my gym (though it is a SEPERATE class time); this involves escaping multiple-opponent situations and weapons with progressive resistance. BJJ was, after all, designed primarily to deal with self-defence.

• 159 Carlton // Feb 17, 2009

  Well RLS if your such a skeptic, and your ignorance for the human body and its energy pathways proves this, then take your time trying to prove a good martial art wrong, and better apply it say oh… finding a master and asking him to prove you wrong. Only then can you say that its not true. And as for the two being seperate martial arts, you know nothing. Aiki is a style used in my training.

• 160 RLS // Feb 17, 2009

  “Ignorance?” Of the body’s “Energy pathways?”

  Those same energy pathways which have absolutely no scientific basis at all?

  You still have provided NO evidence for your claims.

  And Aikijujutsu and Ninjutsu are two completely seperate Japanese martial arts;

  Aikijujutsu, Daito-Ryu; founded by Takeda Sokaku. No relation to Ninja or Ninjutsu at all.

  Ninjutsu; supposedly most directly related arts are the X-kan; the arts associated with Toshitsugu Takamatsu and his supposed Ninja lineage; these comprise of the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.

  Anything else claiming to be Ninjutsu has far less historical basis for their claims, if any at all (which is doubtful.

  Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu and Ninjutsu are two totally different arts. Therefore your quote, “i know ninjitsu(aikijujutsu),” makes no sense. Not to mention the ridiculous use of the phrase “I KNOW such-and-such.” You TRAIN in it.

  Do you train Ninjutsu within the X-kan, Ninjutsu outside the X-kan (which do not have any historical basis beyond an association with Koyu or X-kan arts) or Aiki-Jujutsu?

• 161 Carlton // Feb 17, 2009

  Wow…….. somebody has doen their “research” on wikipedia. If your so knowledgable on the subject, then why dont you enlighten me on the physical proof that you have, that gives scientific reason as to why this martial art does NOT work. And i would seriously consider training with a sensai that knows Dim Mak before you state your closing argument.

• 162 Carlton // Feb 17, 2009

  Oh and also, the two “different” martial arts are actually not so different in style, approach, and even execution. But of course you wouldnt Know this unless you’ve actually trained in this art.

• 163 RLS // Feb 17, 2009

  Carlton, I have trained in Bujinkan Ninjutsu. But irrespective of that, you did not claim that they are similar stylesm with similar approach and execution. You directly stated that they were the same thing. This is like saying that Judo, Wrestling and Shuai Jiao are all the same art because they have similar techniques and goals.

  In addition, you made claims for which you have NO PROOF. It is nobody else’s responsibility to prove you wrong; YOU give scientific evidence that it DOES work.

  Plus, many one-touch knockout artists have been debunked. See these videos, the others in the Bullshido series and hundreds of others out there for examples.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeacZwl2pbg&feature=related

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmenb49oclk&feature=related

• 164 Rob // Feb 18, 2009

  “Those same energy pathways which have absolutely no scientific basis at all?”

  yes they do they are called veins my friend, its where the red stuff goes,

  “You still have provided NO evidence for your claims.”

  Okay if you want proof feel free to any time your feeling sceptical poke a pen into your foot and then one into your eye and tell me which one hurts the most,
  I mean seriously do you expect anyone to go across the world jabing people just to prove a point,

  What your missing hear is that Dim mak does exist, if you dont belive me ask someone to kick you in the groin, there is plenty of evidence out there,
  the argument is whether it is a one touch knock out or just intense pain,

  besides as to debunked dim mak artists there are cons out there for every art, i have a friend who got suckered into “the original karate style which was developed in Africa and then taken over to Japan in 236 BC”
  aparently the people in afrca talked Japanese around that time,
  The more advanced the art the more cons there are,

  and besides anyone who says you cant interupt the flow of enegry, sometime try tying somthing tight around your arm,
  This will do two things firstly, it will prove you can damage someone by interupting their, “Blood” “Chi” “energy” which ever model its the same effects,
  Secondly it means i wont have to read your comments of how you apperentl traveled the world finding all the masters of Dim Mak and not one of them could even cause a tap out, I do wando ryu karate and we enough Dim Mak techniques to hurt you suffently,

• 165 James // Feb 19, 2009

  Check the works of Earl Montegue his skills are real I have trained with a student of his here in Florida and Ive been knocked for a loop with a Fa jing strike also you dont need to hit a person at a certain time of day The Dim Mak that Master Montegue Teaches is definetly a fighting art his books and DVDS are very informative as well

• 166 RLS // Feb 23, 2009

  “yes they do they are called veins my friend, its where the red stuff goes,”

  You aren’t seriously equating blood with chi, are you? This is ridiculous. The energy pathways mentioned in acupuncture and arts which claim Dim Mak strikes are totally different to the circulatory system.

  The human circulatory system is very different to the meridian maps I’ve seen also, not to mention the fact that a strike to a vein will NOT collapse it as you seem to believe it will.

  You’re like another friend of mine, who tried to argue Chi is valid because energy exists. It’s ridiculous. Chi is a philosophical concept which is not needed, nor should it be associated with, the martial arts. I repeat, it has NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS AT ALL.

  Groin kicks are not Dim Mak. Punches to the chin are not Dim Mak. If this were the case, every single strike in Boxing, Muay Thai and Karate (which are ALL directed at such points as the chin, nose, thigh, etc) could be classified as such.

  This is not the case; this is NOT the definition of Dim Mak. You are being a smartass and you know it.

  Even if that was the case, then Dim Mak would be nothing special at all, since every martial art in existence applies it. It’s known as “striking.”

• 167 joshuahyoung // Feb 27, 2009

  I’ve put a lot of study into anatomical correlations of dim mak strikes and find no alleged deadly strikes that fail to target specific physical things like nerves, arteries, the lymphatic system and the internal organs.
  Some people assume if it works then it proves the explanations people give for it, this is not the case. For example the WTBA dim-mak strikes are effective, however they can all be explained in terms of how they affect the body itself and not meridian lines,

  The meridians and the points along them are correlates of functional relationships, they are like a map kin this way, not like the land the map pertains to. Thus they are observations and projections of correlated relationships, not a first hand observation of the meridians themselves.

  I’d like to point out that in Indian martial art (kalari) over 3000 years old there is dim-mak correlate. I do not believe the point stiking system is of chinese origin, instead my research indicates that is hails from older systems introduced to China before China was even China, It used to be a group of non-unified kingdoms states and tribes, the idea that something hailing from that period is Chinese is analogous to saying that if China bought Finland then Fin Vikings are historically speaking: Chinese.

  Sometimes the nationalist rhetoric in martial arts obscures reality in a very subtle way.

• 168 Michael // Mar 21, 2009

  From the length of this on-going discussion it is obvious that there is great interest in this concept. I have collected and read as many books and videos that I can find that are considered be the best from Montaigue(I have over a hunderd of his videos) to our resident guru here Mr. Walker. First a question to Richard if he is still around, you mentioned a second volume that you would publish in your first, is that still in the works?? As its been a number of years from your first I was hoping you havent given up on it…. the interest is obviously still quite alive. I am hoping so as there is very little quality material out there.

  In addition I would like to add my perspective here(a very humble and limited one) on dim-mak, its reality and mechanics. I have a BS inn Biology and attended Med School for 2 years. I also worked as a bouncer in New York City for 4 years and elsewhere for a total of 6 years, so I have been in many fights and have learned by trial and painful error the best way to quickly end an altercation. Also, as I have said I have collected the best material on dim-mak that I could find and have been studying it for a few years now.

  First, on the basic anatomical considerations for point striking, it is obvious that there are points on the body that are more susceptible to strikes then others. One of the things I learned while bouncing si that punches to the head carry a number of dangers for the punchers fist, I have broken knuckles and have numerous scars from those issues. After time I learned to concentrate on the soft tissue areas such as the neck and certain areas of the torso. Many of which coincide with dim-mak points, CV22, BL10, st9, st10, st16, th17, many GB points etc the list goes on and on. Strikes to these areas work and can be devastating… I know, I have seen it.

  As for the acupuncture basis and the arguments against its reality, if you were to search medline for acupuncture you will find a number of studies into this healing art and I have a number of books authored by MDs detailing the points and their uses. So there is some basis for its reality in western medicine. Now the trouble with this art in western medicine is the fact that there is no way to quantify or perform physical tests for the mechanisms behind their effects and being that western medicine is predicated on being able to in some way break down a treatment into observable measurements, the acceptance of the results are usually in varrying degree of doubt. Being that dim-mak is based on the concepts of acupuncture that doubt is carried over to the art. But, as I have stated there is research that shows that there are effects and it can be usueful while there has been difficulty in pin pointing the exact mechanism behind them.

  This brings us to the concept that is at the basis of the difficulty in providing a mechanism behind it all that is acceptable to the west and that is the concept of chi. No one has eve been able to measure, quantify or prove of its existence. But, from my studies I believe that with our current technology we will never be able to measure or prove it, as it is the basis for the very foundation of all that exists(IMHO). From what I can put together chi may just be the same thing that theoretical physics is just now starting to understand as the energy that fuels creation and makes up our reality. So as it is, it would be impossible for any instrument to measure it as that instrument would be made up of it. A great book on the concepts behind this line of thought is “Genesis of the Cosmos” by Paul A. La Violette, PH.D. We can measure the results of its actions such as electromagnetic radiation or the creation of matter but never actually measure it directly. Although, one thing pointed out in the book is that there was a study done by two psychics that attempted to visualize the sub-particle world and what was behind it that generates the particles and matter of our reality and they were able to visualize something that was very close to what is now believed to be the pattern created by this energy. This points to the ability of our (sub)conscious mind to be in some way connected and perhaps even to effect this energy, which leads to the possibility that chi(if it is one and the same) can be controlled by ones mind and maybe directed. This may be the mechanism behind those dim-mak strikes that arent purely anatomical in nature and require the ability to direct ones chi or effect the chi of the opponent.

  Well, there is so much more that can be discussed on this and it covers some very technical material in theoretical physics and biology. I just wanted to dump my 2 cents( thats what i think it worth anyway:)) But, I hope that one of the points that I am making here and a point that Mr. Walker has continually made throughout these comments is that dim-mak is not a simple subject that can be discarded based on watching MMA fights. Before you can shoot it down as many do, you really need to make an effort to learn about it. You will be surprised to find that many martial arts styles contain some level of dim-mak concepts behind them. Even the japanese arts..(take a look at books on “Bubishi” by McCarthy), the studies on accupuncture, zero-point energy and the material provided by Mr. Walker and especially Erle Montiague.

  Ok enough of my babbling.
  Michael

• 169 Richard C. Bauer // Mar 22, 2009

  Hi Michael,

  Thank you for your kind words concerning Grandmaster Walker and my humble little book.

  Following the book’s release in November 2002, we worked on the planned sequel, and got about 85% done with the written manuscript, and about 35% done on the charts and illustrations. But the tragic events following 9/11 required me to spend almost all of my time out in the Gulf of Arabia, from 2002 to 2007. Since August 2007, I have been assigned to Europe. So Grandmaster Walker and I have not yet been able to get together and complete it. The second book’s working title is “Dim Mak: Book of Match.”

  The term “Match” is a reference to the sparring / training methods that were originally used in studying this subject during the 36-chamber sequences. We also prepared information on the martial / medical affects / consequences of striking the centerline collaterals and their associated points, in the same format as the first book. Plus I put together some more combination striking tables as appendices, like we did in the first book.

  Some day, we hope to finish it.

  All the best from Europe,

  Rick Bauer

• 170 Michael // Mar 22, 2009

  Rick,

  Thanks for the update, and of course for your ongoing sacrifice in Iraq in service to our country. I hope you will return home soon. I also need to correct myself in the first comment as I confused you for Mr. Walker I should have double checked who was posting here and the corrections in my post should indicated that i was speaking of you comments here.

  Anyway, I do look forward to your second volume and of course you continued input here.

  Thank you again

  Michael

• 171 Richard C. Bauer // Mar 22, 2009

  Hi Michael,

  I am just doing my small part in the war effort. There are a lot more folks deserving of such praise. On behalf of them, I thank you.

  All the best,

  Rick

• 172 ETWolverine // Jun 4, 2009

  To Richard Bauer:

  I was wondering if you could comment on the relationship between the study of Kata and Dim Mak.

  I know what George Dillman has to say on the topic. He believes that Kata is there to teach the pressure points… by learning the kata, you learn the correct response (uke) to specific types of attacks, including how to activate specific pressure points. He seems to be of the opinion that the “secret” of kyusho jutsu is “hidden” in the kata, and that an in depth examination of the movements of the kata lead to effective bunkai using kyusho. That’s why kata needs to be studied with a master or teacher who really examines them deeply rather than teaching kata by rote.

  I was wondering if you could comment.

  Thanks in advance,

  Elliot

• 173 Richard C. Bauer // Jun 7, 2009

  Hi Elliott,

  There is a deep relationship between old, pedigreed kata and the original methods of teaching Dim Mak. In fact, the old kata always had three tiers of lessons buried within them, which were taught to students as they progressed.

  Essentially, pedigreed kata represent a record of an old master, who wove the lessons from a fight (or series of fights) into a set of movements.

  All the best,

  Rick

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