Investigating the Dim Mak Death Touch

117 responses so far ↓

• 1 BlacktotheFuture // Oct 12, 2006

  It was helpful…but a concrete verdict from the author would’ve been nice.

• 2 Chris // Oct 12, 2006

  From the article: “…it should be obvious that the skill of dim mak does exist…”

  What questions have gone unanswered?

• 3 N // Oct 19, 2006

  By this same logic since jumping is a means by which humans may influence their distance from the earth, then surely the ability to fly is no more improbable than the ability to jump one meter.

  Puhlease.

• 4 Chris // Oct 19, 2006

  It is rather like saying that if you can jump to the left, you should be able to jump to the right.

• 5 Ken // Nov 9, 2006

  Dim mak is real , My deceased grandfather (trained by a shaolin master) was good at it and even tried to pass down the training method and technique but the new generation (us) sure prefer TV or computer over those ancient deadly and boring martial arts.

  He could poke a hole in the botol and he knew at which spot and time(say 12Pm) one should strike at to be fully effective . But all thess knowledges are gone under the new generation. The time has changed .

• 6 mmabjj // Nov 28, 2006

  Dim Mak as a valid martial arts form is a load of old cobblers, I’m afraid.

  Sure, getting pressed, poked or jabbed in certain parts of the body can be very painful. But basing your system of self defence, or basing your combat skill, around this is just asking to lose every fight you are in.

  I can punch you in the jaw quicker than you can locate pressure point 17e at midnight on a Tuesday (if I have eaten brunch, if not–Wednesday)and grip it with your left fingernail whilst simultanously touching pressure point 12.5b under my left toenail.

• 7 Bobbo // Dec 4, 2006

  Dim Mak isn’t a soft tap, its a blunt strike to a spot on the chest that causes 2 inches of chest compression, broken ribs, and heart failure.

• 8 Richard C. Bauer // Dec 13, 2006

  Dim Mak is a legitimate subset of the chinese martial styles. Essentially, it is preceision striking, which takes advantage of anatomical weaknesses of the human physiology. Historically, It took ten years of hard study and practice in order to weild correctly. It was anything but easy.

  One of the many problems which exists today is the martial arts public has been innundated with less than authoritative material on this subject. This continues to lead to a number of repeated misconceptions on what is and is not Dim Mak.

  Arguably the first published reference in English occured in 1958, when James Yimm Lee published his books on Iron Hand training. Bruce Lee also made brief mention of it in his 1963 book on Gung Fu. And Ark Wong wrote a considerable amount on the topic in 1963 and 1968, in his books on Kung Fu. Since the 1970’s, there have been countless magazine articles and books on the subject… particularly in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. With all things in the media, some of this material was accurate, and some was not.

  From a research historian perspective, the subject appears in several original chinese works, which were published in the late 1800’s (particularly the book by Master Huo Tuo in 1878, and the book by GrandMaster Li Shi Zhe in 1881). The three proper sets of Dim Mak (aka, Dim Mak, Dim Hseuh and Dim Ching) also appear prominently in the Shorin Ryu Bubishi (circa the late 1700’s), which was published in the 1930s. Funakosh also mentions the subject in his published work in the 1920’s and 1930’s, and so did Motobu in his books of the same time period.

  Very Respectfully,

  R. Bauer

  co-author of THE ANCIENT ART OF LIFE AND DEATH: THE BOOK OF DIM MAK

• 9 Chris // Dec 13, 2006

  Robert, thank you for the historical info.

• 10 Richard C. Bauer // Dec 14, 2006

  Chris,

  Your welcome. The Seattle area is where I grew up, so I am always happy to help folks back home.

  All the best from the Gulf of Arabia,

  Rick

• 11 ETWolverine // Jan 2, 2007

  With all due respect to mmabjj, he is wrong.

  First of all, Dim Mak (or Kyusho-jutsu in the Okinawan version) is not only effective, but is much more effective as a defensive/offensive technique than a random punch to the jaw. Sure, if you are strong enough, you can knock an opponent out with a strike to the jaw… maybe. Obviously boxers, oriental martial artists and shoot fighters hit and get hit in the jaw all the time, but knockouts are actually pretty rare. Sure it could happen, but not all that often, and not reliably enough to end the fight with a single strike. However, with the pressure-point techniques of Dim Mak/Chin Na/Kyusho Jutsu, a knockout, or at least an end to the fight, is virtually guaranteed… every time… if the technique is executed properly.

  The idea behind pressure point fighting is that a strike to a single pressure point causes pain and a weakening of a limb or joint. A strike to two points causes the pain to be multiplied as well as to be referred to another spot on the body. Striking three points causes a knockout or extreme weakness, disorientation and inability to defend oneself from a follow-up strike (effectively ending the fight). Four points causes organ failure unless revitalization techniques are used to reverse the effect. Five points (and it has to be the correct five points in the correct order) causes death.

  Now, you are probably thinking: “How can I hit three different points reliably to cause a knockout faster than the opponent can counter me with a single blow?” The answer lies in the anatomy of the human body. For instance, the pressure points known as Lung 7, 8 & 9 are within an inch of each other, on the thumb side of the inner wrist. A single strike can activate all three pressure points, causing a drop in heart rate, blood pressure and overall dizzyness and disorientation… effectively a TKO, and a move that ends the opponent’s ability to attack you (which is the real goal, after all). A friend of mine actually did this by accident a few years back during a practice in which he caught his opponent’s L7, 8 & 9 during a deflection of an incoming punch. It wasn’t even intended as a strike, just a deflection.

  Another example is a cupped-hand strike over the eye. Properly executed, this can activate as many as 8 different pressure points (ST 1 & 2, LI 20, SI 18, UB 1 & 2, GB 1 & 14). There’s a video of this type of knockout being performed by David Rhodes available here: http://www.kyusho.com/davidrhodesKO1.wmv.

  “But isn’t this too hard for the average person to learn quickly” is the next obvious question. The answer is yes and no. The fact is that most martial artists are already learning these techniques… they just don’t know it. As George Dillman explains, the techniques are already in the regular kata and bunkai performed by every martial artist from child to adult. They just haven’t been taught to recognize it as such. They are taught that the movements of kata have meanings that are simplistic at best, and downright rediculous and ineffective at worst. But when taught in the context of pressure-point fighting, they make perfect sense.

  For instance, why would anyone use the weakest part of the arm to block a kick, as is commonly taught in every martial arts school as the “lower block”. Chances are that your arm will break before you can stop a full-powered kick. But if the same “lower block” movement is used to attack pressure points on an opponent’s attacking arm, such as Lung 5 or Heart 3, the movement begins to make sense and become effective. Taught in that context, it is clear that every moderately capable martial artist has the movements down pat. What he needs to learn is the real meaning behind the movements he was taught. This means an entirely new way of thinking about the movements of your fighting style. But the locations and directions of the major striking points aren’t that hard to learn… I picked up quite a bit of it in a few weeks, enough to make it an effective system for using what I already knew in real combat situations. It is no slower and often faster than the punch to the jaw that is advocated by mmabjj, and ALWAYS more effective.

• 12 Dustin // Jan 3, 2007

  It is truly a shame that a viable martial art subset has been cast aside by modern society as voo-doo. I have performed several strikes explained and demonstrated to me by my fathers ishin-ryu sensei. Not only are they incredibly effective but they are relatively easy to learn and execute. It is my understanding that the necessity of time of day and other such restrictions (minus angle and force) were essentially mental exercises. These lessons were intended to bring a greater level of discipline to students in dim mak. I have performed the same strikes at various times of day with ultimately the exact same results. Too often people cast aside what they do not understand or do not wish to understand as nonsense. Someday you may be forced into a fight with someone not afraid to learn these techniques and when you are on the ground wondering what happened maybe you will make an attempt to understand rather than put down a very effective fighting style.
  Also, Ken, I mean no disrespect to you or your grandfather but poking a hole in a bottle does not necessarily mean he was practicing dim mak. I was capable of doing the same thing through training in qigong. It is commonly known as iron palm, fist, grip, etc.
  To mmabjj. I suggest checking your sources and rather than focusing on time of day etc., focus on picking one combination of points you can easily locate. Practice being able to find those points and then use them on a training partner. Be sure to learn the counter measures to reverse the effects of your strike before doing so. If that doesn’t change your mind then I guess you are on your own.

• 13 Drunken Cobra // Jan 9, 2007

  Hello, I know about these facts and it’s 100% basic. In the structure of the human body we have points to where the tissue goes in, leaving points in the body fresh open to attaries. When you strike a pressure point it closes it and causes the pressure to counter back into there body. When they counter back into your body it allows effecting nerves to your brain from the blood flow to effect the whole part of the area. It can cause your muscles to be stunned, knockout, or death. If your a big fan of martial art movies, you hear about the “5 Points of Death”. In Dim Mak there is certain skills you can learn to target the nerve in the heart, the kidney, the bladder, liver and brain to cause a delayed death by the amount of pressure on the body. It takes years of studying the points and years to learn how to do it.

  Any questions add pure_punish@hotmail.com

• 14 Ric // Jan 10, 2007

  funny how none of this has been used in any kind of UFC tournament. let me guess, its too deadly! but as ETwolverine pointed out, you could use just 3 points for a TKO rather than 5 for a kill… hmm.

  let me share the secret of the ninja death touch with all of you. even though the ninja clans will hunt me down and kill me, i will add my 2 cents to shed some realistic light on the matter. tiny poisoned needles attached to fingernails!! oh my god it all makes sense now! slow acting poison for delayed death touch! anaesthetic for a knockout or limb numbing!

  apply occams razor here guys… what makes more sense- poisoned needles or an esoteric chi/meridian system. FYI acupuncture has never been shown to work in any scientific controlled double blind study. yes there is tons of empirical evidence and users who swear by it. i leave it at that.

• 15 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 12, 2007

  Back in the 1960s and 1970s, certain infamous comic book and pulp fiction versions of Dim Mak were produced and sold in the North American and European mass-market, which purported to teach “Dim Mak – The Death Touch.” These over-hyped versions were not factually accurate, and were designed to sensationalize and sell. In my humble opinion, this marketing trend… which was part of the pop culture phenomena of the times, helped turn the subject of Dim Mak into a morass. It was akin to learning Karate or Kung Fu from a tabloid.

  Dim Mak, as a legitimate historical subject, was an outgrowth of Chinese medicine and Chinese Gong Fu. The ancient doctors of the period witnessed the outcome of fights and battles, and thru empirical observation, recorded what they believed was the cause and effect outcomes of specific, focused trauma, applied to sensitive areas of the human body. As a matter of medical physiology and biomechanics, the body is not uniformly strong. It has areas which are more vulnerable to damage.

  The way in which trauma can be inflicted on a person’s body can vary significantly, and is directly dependent on the manner in which they are hit. The Old Chinese Masters, thru centuries of cause-and-effect observation, determined a specific number of ways of inflicting certain types of trauma to specific parts of the body. They divided this information into three distinct subsets… the most viscous of which they referred to as Dim Mak strikes.

  Biologically, the human body runs on regulated cycles. For example, the circulatory system was of particular interest to the Old Chinese Masters, as it followed a consistent, rhythmic pattern. This gave the Old Masters a timing mechanism, of sorts. For certain types of strikes targeting blood gates, they charted out the length of time it took from the moment of impact, when the arterial wall was severely traumatized, to when it ruptured. The Old Maters made records of these cause-and-effect patterns, originally to understand how to heal the condition. They then spent a considerable amount of research on the health and restoration techniques (such as herbology), which were necessary to heal the trauma. Feudal China was plagued with massive wars, and fighting was almost a routine part of life. Originally, the Old Chinese Masters begin the study of Dim Mak to understand how to try and heal a person, in the event a person in their care was struck and hurt in a fight, battle, war, etc.

  When the subject of Dim Mak begin to appear in Western literature in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, most of the cause and effect descriptions were very limited, and cloaked with eastern imagery (such as “Hit here, and the person will fall down like frightened chicken”)… which fueled pessimism in the West, and comparisons to Voodoo. Then a number of less-than-authoritative information was published, claiming to be “Dim-Mak.” It wasn’t. It was pure fiction. It wasn’t authoritative. It was not based on legitimate training or records. It was cattle manure. But in the swirl of concepts and pop culture, it became part of the urban legend. Regrettably, the legacy of that period of bad information continues to live with us, along with the gross misconceptions.

  Hope the above helps.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

• 16 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 14, 2007

  After reading thru the discussion thread, there are a couple of areas in Chris’ original article which I would respectfully offer some thoughts and comments:

  “The Cantonese term dim mak does not translate to death touch… “

  Linguistically, this is correct. But it is also fair to say that over the past 200+ years, the term “Death Touch” has become associated with the Asian practice of hitting vital points on the body.

  “I have heard that a less dramatic, but more accurate translation would be “press artery… ”

  “By definition, dim mak operates on arteries… “

  For the subset of Dim Mak strikes which target blood gates (Dim Hsueh), I would partially agree. But as a general statement, I would respectfully disagree. The subject of dim mak is much more complex than this. Dim Mak is not limited to just attacking arteries or blood gates. In the same way, it is much more complex than just attacking nerve centers or branches… which is another common theory. As a process, it would be better to characterize it as a systematized method of attacking anatomical weak centers of the body. And these attacks are all done with high precision and skill.

  Chinese lexemes can sometimes be very difficult to translate into English, and often times refer to a concept, image or process, and not an actual thing. In addition, their exact meaning is influenced by the order in which the brush-stroke characters appear in the sentence.

  Dim (Dian) (Tian) can translate by itself to: dot, speck, spot, point or degree

  Mak (Muk) (Mai) (Hsueh) can translate by itself to: blood vessels, veins or arteries

  The Mandarin term Xue can translate by itself to: cave, den, or hole

  In the simplist of translations, dim mak (dian xue) can refer to “spotting points” or “spotting acupoints”

  In the Chinese martial arts, the process of studying Dim Mak is often referred to in Mandarin as Dian Xue Shu: or the skill / art of spotting (striking / attacking / pressing) acupoints / vital points.

  On the recent translation of the Shao-lin Dim Mak book, Dian Xue Shu, which was originally published in China in 1934, the translators noted: “[This book is about the] method of acting on acupoints and their practical application in Martial Arts. DIAN XUE SHU… literally means “The Art of Touching Acupoints” [and is more commonly known] in the West as DIM MAK (“Blows to the Arteries” in Cantonese dialect) or “Death Touch.” It should be noted that the last two names do not fully reflect the essence of this method.”

  I would respectfully agree with the above assessment. The full concept of Dim Mak includes attacking arteries, but it is not limited to it. The old Masters always taught Dim Mak using references to traditional Chinese vital points / acupoints as targets. That is why you will often see teachers refer to the subject of Dim Mak as: “The skill in striking Vital Points” or “The Art of Attacking Acupoints” or “Acupoint / Meridian Pressing”… just to name a few.

  “According to TCM theory and practice as manifest in acupuncture, the body is covered with these arteries, also known as meridians… “

  I would respectfully disagree with this statement. The circulatory system plays a critical role in Chinese meridian theory, but arteries are not meridians. The Chinese Classics of Medicine are fond of saying “where the blood goes, chi flows…” but they always make a clear distinction between the circulatory system and the meridian / collateral system. They are different conceptual processes. Meridian theory is much more complex than this.

  Just my humble opinion.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

• 17 Chris // Jan 14, 2007

  I did indeed use “artery” to describe both blood arteries and chi “arteries”; I did not mean to imply they are the same and I apologize for any confusion. The points I intended to communicate are:
  1) Dim mak is not merely punching really hard to break bones and tear flesh.
  2) To accept acupuncture while dismissing dim mak is hypocritical.

• 18 Miguelshihto // Jan 15, 2007

  mmabjj, that was a little outrageous, you obviously don’t even comprehend the power this has to offer

• 19 mmabjj // Jan 15, 2007

  It’s very simple.

  I am correct.

  If you believe this stuff, deadly death touches, 5-point death knockouts, 3 point TKOs, you are delusional, in love with the idea of the martial arts (mysticism, ninjas, death touch, etc.) rather than the reality of martial arts (punches, kicks, submissions, and a lot of hard training.)

  ETWOlverine is clearly delusional. Apparently, pressure point TKOs are MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE than a punch to the jaw. This is despite the huge pile of empirical evidence to the contrary (people in boxing matches, MMA fights, and street fights are getting KO’d every minute of every day around the world), and the fact that the mysterious death touch mysteriously doesnt work when a master of said technique tries it on someone who is not from his school.

  You people are bullshido, the worst kind of delusional martial artist, with no real idea of what it means to be able to fight or to study martial arts.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN787VmJiL8
  There’s a video of a volunteer offering to be “dim-makked” by someone giving a seminar. Surprise surprise, it didn’t work. They were not his students.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI
  Here’s another video where the technique doesn’t work on someone who is not pre-brainwashed.

  Best of all, here is a master of not only the death touch, but no touch knockouts, entering a real, limited rules fight. And getting his nose smashed and giving up by one of those punches that Mr. Wolverine dismisses as ineffective.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQeUkUO5ZPo&eurl=

  People, for the love of humanity, wake up.

• 20 Chris // Jan 16, 2007

  You are free to discuss the technical merits of dim mak, or its lack of merits, in a civil fashion. No ad hominem attacks are allowed in my forum.

• 21 ETWolverine // Jan 17, 2007

  Ric,

  First of all, it HAS been used in UFC tournaments. Remember how many UFC fighters have been choked out? Those chokes are as much a part of pressure point fighting as what I have been talking about.

  Second of all, Ninja didn’t use dim mak. They used poisions. So you are right on that count. That doesn’t mean that OTHERS didn’t use dim mak. Each has its place in the martial sciences.

  Third, you said, “FYI acupuncture has never been shown to work in any scientific controlled double blind study. ” Hate to tell you this (no I don’t), but you are wrong. In a double blind study, the Chochrane Group found the following: “Thirty-five RCTs covering 2861 patients were included in this systematic review. There is insufficient evidence to make any recommendations about acupuncture or dry-needling for acute low-back pain. For chronic low-back pain, results show that acupuncture is more effective for pain relief than no treatment or sham treatment, in measurements taken up to three months. The results also show that for chronic low-back pain, acupuncture is more effective for improving function than no treatment, in the short-term. Acupuncture is not more effective than other conventional and “alternative” treatments. When acupuncture is added to other conventional therapies, it relieves pain and improves function better than the conventional therapies alone. However, effects are only small. Dry-needling appears to be a useful adjunct to other therapies for chronic low-back pain.” — The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews October 30. 2004

  A review by Manheimer et al. in Annals of Internal Medicine (2005) reached conclusions similar to Cochrane’s review on low back pain.

  For headache, Cochrane concluded (2006) that “(o)verall, the existing evidence supports the value of acupuncture for the treatment of idiopathic headaches.

  The Cochrane review (2006) on the use of the P6 acupoint for the reduction of post-operative nausea and vomiting concluded that “compared with anti emetic prophylaxis, P6 acupoint stimulation seems to reduce the risk of nausea but not vomiting”

  Bandolier said “P6 acupressure in two studies showed 52% of patients with control having a success, compared with 75% with P6 acupressure”(1999) and that one in five adults, but not children showed reduction in early postoperative nausea(2000).

  According to the National Institutes of Health: Preclinical studies have documented acupuncture’s effects, but they have not been able to fully explain how acupuncture works within the framework of the Western system of medicine that is commonly practiced in the United States.

  The NIH further stated: there is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy… There is reasonable evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain… reasonable studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia…

  Central Nervous Pathway for Acupuncture Stimulation: Localization of Processing with Functional MR Imaging of the Brain—Preliminary Experience: Ming-Ting Wu, MD, Jen-Chuen Hsieh, MD, PhD, Jing Xiong, MD, Chien-Fang Yang, MD, Huay-Ban Pan, MD, Yin-Ching Iris Chen, PhD, Guochuan Tsai, MD, PhD, Bruce R. Rosen, MD, PhD and Kenneth K. Kwong, PhD. “Acupuncture at LI.4 and ST.36 resulted in significantly higher scores for De-Qi and in substantial bradycardia. Acupuncture at both acupoints resulted in activation of the hypothalamus and nucleus accumbens and deactivation of the rostral part of the anterior cingulate cortex, amygdala formation, and hippocampal complex; control stimulations did not result in such activations and deactivations.”

  There is ample clinical evidence that SOMETHING biological is happening when accupuncture is used, whether we understand the mechanism of it or not.

  mmabjj,

  How many MMA fights end up going absolutely nowhere with no KOs, no submissions and time running out? How many boxing matches? How many UFC fights? What is the percentage of actual KOs to fights without KOs?

  I’ve seen these kyusho-jutsu techniques used. I’ve been on the receiving end of them… before I believed in them. I was a practitioner of the old “punching and kicking” type of martial arts that you are pushing, and I don’t deny their efficacy. I’m a brawler myself, when it comes down to it. But that doesn’t mean that the kyusho techniques don’t work.

  I can’t view the youtube videos you posted on my computer due to technical difficulties, so I can’t see what went wrong. But I cannot believe that a properly executed pressure-point attack had absolutely no effect whatsoever on the subject. Even a smack in the face or a finger jab in the ribs has an effect. So… what effect did it have?

  As for an MMA style fight, I’d love for you to see an MMA fighter try to “shoot” for the legs of a good kyusho practitioner, and see what happens. I’ve actually seen it. It was quite an interesting fight… all six seconds of it. Here’s a hint: CV 24, GV 24 & 25, GV 15, TW 15. Two strikes, he was out.

  Finally, what makes your disagreement with pressure-point fighting any different from the disagreement with any style of martial arts that used to exist in this country (and still does in some circles). Remember how street fighers and boxers used to look at Karate and Gung-Fu as mystic BS that could never work in real life? But it does work. What makes you think that THIS is any different? Sure it’s more complicated than what you are used to. But does that mean that it’s ineffective?

  And if someone is saying that there is a technique that is more effective than a punch in the jaw for producing klnockouts, don’t you think its worth a bit of direct investigation before you dismiss it out of hand based on your belief that it could never work? Why not try it before you deny it?

  Such hostility over techniques that are probably older than whatever you practice, and that obviously work for SOMEONE. Based on the fact that you have HEARD that it doesn’t work, without having checked it out for yourself.

• 22 ETWolverine // Jan 18, 2007

  mmabjj,

  I should make one more point.

  The Kyusho Jutsu techniques include a “punch to the jaw”. Kyusho just happens to teach the exact method, including direction, angle, and power with which to punch the opponent in the jaw for greatest effect. TW 17 is on the corner of the jaw, just behind the bone ridge and below the ear. TW 18-22 are around the ear. TW 23 is at the temple. CV 24 is in the center of the lower jaw. GV 26 is on the upper lip just below the nose. GV 25 is on the tip of the nose. LI 19 and LI 20 are at the corner of the mouth and the ridge of the cheekbone respectively. These are all the same spots that a “brawler” who just punches and kicks tries to aim for anyway.

  So basically, all those punch-to-the-jaw knockouts that you are so enamoured with all are associated with pressure-point attacks. The difference is that for you, they were an accident, just blind luck. You might have gotten a KO or you might not. For a Kyusho practitioner, they are done on purpose, with intent and proper technique, and thus more likely to result in a KO with more frequency.

  Elliot

• 23 oldman34 // Jan 19, 2007

  This is ridiculous. He chopped the guy in the ribs. Notice he didnt “touch” him. He hit him with some force. Any strike to the body cavity can be felt on the opposite side. Plus, the guy didnt fall over like the guys in white. Why not?

  Have a friend strike you in the ribs like that. I guarantee, you will feel it on the other side of your body.

  The best way to interrupt “chi flow” is to wrap your arms around their neck and squeeze. Its called a Rear Nake Choke. Works everytime. Doesnt matter what time of day, waht season, if they have their toungue in the top or bottom of their mouths. They are going to sleep.

  I leave you with these words of wisdom…

  Chi doesnt exist, Ninjas dont rule the night, and an elbow to the back is not the anti-grapple.

• 24 slideyfoot // Jan 19, 2007

  “But I cannot believe that a properly executed pressure-point attack had absolutely no effect whatsoever on the subject.”

  That would be exactly what happened - I’d recommend you find some way to view them before continuing the argument. Though I’m guessing your response may well be that the representatives in those videos were somehow inadequately skilled, and therefore incapable of giving dim mak a fair showing.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

  Having said that, I’d be very interested to see some evidence of this:

  “As for an MMA style fight, I’d love for you to see an MMA fighter try to “shoot” for the legs of a good kyusho practitioner, and see what happens. I’ve actually seen it. It was quite an interesting fight… all six seconds of it. Here’s a hint: CV 24, GV 24 & 25, GV 15, TW 15. Two strikes, he was out.”

  Do you have the name of the MMA fighter and some corroborating accounts of the incident?

• 25 ETWolverine // Jan 19, 2007

  Who has claimed that dim mak was merely touching the opponent? In every post I have made here I mentioned “striking” the target points. Different points respond best to different types of strikes, presses or rubs. TW12 is best activated by rubbing. H6 is best activated by pressing and torquing/twisting. L5 responds best to a hard, sharp strike. SI17 should be struck with a heavy blow. TW17 requires a strike at a 45 degree angle from back to front to work properly.

  I haven’t seen any accupoint that is simply “touched” for effect. If someone was claiming to simply be able to touch an opponent and knock him out, he was full of crap. It doesn’t exist.

  Furthermore, if you ever look at an accupuncture point chart, you will notice that the accupoints are exactly the same points that a typical puncher/kicker aims for anyway. The difference is that a kyusho fighter’s aim and angle of attack is better.

  I wish I could give you the name of the MMA fighter, but I don’t have it. The corroboration could come from some friends of mine who were there at the time, including a Kyusho instructor named Eric Lerner. But since he’s a Kyusho guy, his coroboration would be suspect.

  Finally, are you aware of the fact that a rear neck choke is a pressure-point technique? Not a strike, but a “press”. But a pressure-point technique, nonetheless. Please read again what I wrote above: “The fact is that most martial artists are already learning these techniques… they just don’t know it. As George Dillman explains, the techniques are already in the regular kata and bunkai performed by every martial artist from child to adult. They just haven’t been taught to recognize it as such. They are taught that the movements of kata have meanings that are simplistic at best, and downright rediculous and ineffective at worst. But when taught in the context of pressure-point fighting, they make perfect sense.” In other words, every martial artist worth his salt is already a pressure-point fighter… he just doesn’t know it yet.

• 26 ETWolverine // Jan 19, 2007

  One last point:

  In UFC 2, Keith Kackney defeated sumo Emanuel Yarborough, He did it with strikes to the head of Yarborough. And in doing so, Hackney broke his own hand. It was certainly a triumph of technique over size. But what good is a punch to the head if in doing so you break your own hand, and are unable to continue the fight against other opponents?.

  The guys posting here that push the idea of a punch to the jaw don’t know anatomy very well. Why in the hell would anyone deliberately attack some of the hardest and most dense bones in the human body, the bones of the skull and jaw, with some of the weakest and most easily broken bones of the body, the metacarpals of the hand and metatarsals of the foot? Do you really think that these millenia old martial arts styles couldn’t find a better way to fight than to slam the softest parts of your body into the hardest parts of your opponent’s body and hope he falls unconscious faster than your hand breaks?

  Kyusho answers that problem. The strikes are just as hard, but they are aimed better, so that the effect is greater for your opponent and less painful for you. Does nobody here see the value of what that sort of fighting technique might have to offer in terms of efficacy?

• 27 Backdraft // Jan 19, 2007

  One does’nt kick with the foot, one kicks with the SHINBONE. Wich you should know, what whith your “superior angles” and all.

  Why attack the jaw? Because it jars the brain, causing concussion. It’s been proven so many times it’s not funny. While all you have is hearsay, and bad interpretation. Last of all, George Dillman is a fraud. Proven fraud. Big time fraud. And so is Dim Mak.

• 28 slideyfoot // Jan 19, 2007

  “As George Dillman explains, the techniques are already in the regular kata and bunkai performed by every martial artist from child to adult.”

  Again, I strongly urge you to watch the actual documented evidence that has been posted up to support the case against dim mak. Please tell me you don’t think Dillman is making a credible excuse at the end of this video:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

  “Does nobody here see the value of what that sort of fighting technique might have to offer in terms of efficacy?”

  Not until we see some proof. Considering that in this thread alone four videos have been posted up in which dim mak failed miserably in terms of efficacy, I think our position is more reasonable than yours.

  To recap:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN787VmJiL8

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdrzBL2dHMI

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQeUkUO5ZPo&eurl=

• 29 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 19, 2007

  Hi Everyone,

  I have read thru the recent string of posts, and respectfully would add the following thoughts:

  One of the biggest problems with the subject of Dim-Mak is credibility. When folks started to write about this topic in English 40 years ago, it was often described as “one of the greatest plateaus” within the arts. And it was shrouded in mystique. In reality, the subject was originally the study of medicine (from the old Asian perspective), and it was all about understanding how people became injured in fights, and what needed to be done to treat the injuries.

  The old Dim-Mak material from China and Okinawa, dating prior to 1900, was usually presented in the following manner:

  (a) On the top of the page – there would always be a description of the type of injury being discussed. The descriptions were usually brief, but were always specific as to the place on the body being hit (usually defined by the acupoint and meridian areas being affected). If the strike was causing a serious level of trauma, this was also discussed – using the Asian medical imagery of the time.

  (b) On the bottom of the page – there was a description of the herbal formula needed to treat the injury, along with acupuncture notes.

  Prior to 1900, the Asian approach to medicine in China was simply termed “Dim-Mak.” It was all about healing people. But in order to understand how to treat trauma, the old Chinese Martial Arts Masters (who were considered doctors from the temple orders) also studied how it was inflicted. And so they kept notes on both. That was the original genesis of this subject. And it took lots and lots of skill and practice to learn correctly. It was hard and rigorous training. It was NOT a shortcut. It was not systematized around simple point sequences. It always required physical skill and action.

  The problem with the subject of Dim-Mak today is it has become heavily distorted, over sensationalized, and is awash with incorrect material.

  In the 1960’s and 1970’s, a wave of bad information was sold to the public. To my knowledge, this started around 1963. The first may have been a well-known judo instructor in LA, who sold booklets via comic book ads, under the name “Honorable Master Kung Fu.” This material purported to teach the “secrets of Dim-Mak… and the fabled “No Touch Knockouts.” In reality, it was a well-illustrated booklet of judo techniques! It was NOT Dim-Mak. Beginning in the late 1960’s, another martial artist in Chicago did a similar thing… selling booklets thru comic book ads, also purporting to teach “Dim-mak” and the fabled “Death Touch.” Again, this material was not based on any credible source material or training. At best, it was akin to streetfighting techniques. But the author called it “Dim-mak” - and many people accepted that.

  During the 1980’s and 1990’s, a new wave of material came out. In my humble opinion, some was good; a lot was bad. In internet forums, when the lineage or credibility of certain techniques was brought up, some of these instructors would simply allude to un-named “old Shao-lin poems” which they claimed “proved” any martial use of acupoints was really Dim-Mak… and therefore, what they were teaching was “100% authentic”… no mater what it was. This was all highly incorrect. The legitimate source records which specifically reference Dim-Mak (such as the Bubishi), are very specific on what is and is not Dim-Mak.

  In reality, a large number of these these types of instructors were never classically trained in this subject. In certain cases, they had, at best, developed their own approach to the topic, thru trial-and-error, or personal research trying to reverse engineer concepts. Or they used techniques from an existing style which they did know (like judo or chin-na), and simply modified it and called it the same as “Dim-Mak.”

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

• 30 slideyfoot // Jan 20, 2007

  Out of interest, what’s your opinion on the videos, Rick?

  Also, do you have a view on George Dillman? I notice he hasn’t cropped up in your posts yet.

  Finally, on the topic of suspicious adverts purporting to teach ‘dim mak’ back in the 70s, here’s a flashback for you:

  http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/data/557/medium/SSOC_007_August_1975_p56.jpg

• 31 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 21, 2007

  Dear slideyfoot,

  In reference to the videos, poor technique is poor technique. And improper technique never works, under any conditions.

  In Okinawa, prior to 1945, they had an old practice called “Jutsu.” It was somewhat akin to a wild-west shoot-out. Two martial artists would cross paths. A challenge would often be made, and a close-quarter duel would often ensue. Thus, a martial artists’ skill was often put to the test, and at times were critical to their survival. Obviously, in today’s polite society, we do not have the same training environ. Which in certain ways has led to a lot of untried and unproven claims.

  There are lots of folks in today’s world claiming to be martial arts masters. But what did they have to go thru to earn that? It is extremely rare to find anyone who was properly taught the Old Way, by a qualified Bujin master. The difference in quality instruction can be considerable. Unfortunately, the general public continues to see a black belt from any style as being fairly equal in skill base to eachother. This is further ascerbated by the regretable paradigm, in which skill is equated by plastic trophys and cinema time.

  Yes, I am very familiar with Mr. Dillman. He has been active in martial arts circles since the early 1960’, and made quite a name for himself in the 70’s and 80’s doing ice breaks. In the early 90’s, he started self-publishing material on pressure points, after experimenting with submission techniques he had seen demonstrated by Seiyu Oyata and Hohen Soken. Over the past 15+ years, he and his students have attempted to research pressure points by a wide variety of methods. Mr. Dillman’s books and tapes lay out the concepts of “the Dillman theory of pressure point fighting,” which he says is dim mak. I respectfully do not agree with all aspects of that claim.

  In reference to the Count Dante flashback… yes, that was one of the many sources of opinions on dim mak which swirled around in the 1970’s. Mr. Dante managed to sell quite a few of those booklets, and received quite a bit of press coverage – until a tragic series of deaths at his Chicago dojo effectively discredited him and his system.

  Just my humble opinion!

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 32 slideyfoot // Jan 22, 2007

  Thanks for the response, Rick.

  “Obviously, in today’s polite society, we do not have the same training environ. Which in certain ways has led to a lot of untried and unproven claims.”

  In a sense, we do, in the form of MMA competition (UFC, Pride etc). Its not quite the same, as there are doctors on hand and a referree, so generally not “critical to their survival”, but it DOES provide an excellent training environ in which to test unproven claims. This was even more true in the early UFC, when the rules were very limited (no eye-gouging or biting), and even then breaking those rules would merely result in a fine rather than disqualification.

  Not to mention that the concept of the UFC wasn’t new in 1993, predated by various organisations in Japan, and even earlier by competitions in Brazil. I’ve also heard there was something vaguely similar in Asia (might have been Hong Kong or Thailand), but I haven’t yet seen documented evidence. Well, unless something like this counts:

  http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/data/557/tournament_held_in_Shanghai_.JPG

  “I respectfully do not agree with all aspects of that claim.”

  Would you mind going into further detail? I wouldn’t agree with Dillman’s claims either, particularly going by the videos which would appear to disprove them. I’m assuming that in addition, you would have a more theoretically grounded objection?

• 33 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 22, 2007

  Hi slidefoot,

  In reference to the UFC and similar types of matches… yes, they do help validate certain types of techniques, to a point. And yes, the required training and development of fighters in these types of no-holds matches can be extensive, hard and rigorous. But there still are certain levels of difference which can exist. A hypothetical example, of sorts, would be comparing two boxers of relative equal standing. Both trained in similar ways. But one of the two fighters served two tours in the special forces, in which they legally had to use their martial skills to survive. And in that combat environment, the had to take it to the highest level. The other hypothetical fighter did not, and only trained in the gym, and participated in organized matches. That is the difference I am referring to. There is an intensity in warfare-earned, combat proven skills in which lives are fully at risk. This type of proving ground is absent from other training settings - no matter how hard. This is the training intensity that used to exist in Asia, and were often mployed fully in life and death encounters. Gogen Yamaguchi and Mas Oyama often noted this same disctinction to their students during the 1960’s and 1970’s.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 34 slideyfoot // Jan 22, 2007

  As I mentioned, I can see that there is a difference between testing your skills in a ring with doctors and a ref as opposed to a genuinely life or death situation. However, I still feel that in terms of the point you made regarding “a lot of untried and unproven claims,” the MMA format is an ideal environment in which to rectify that situation.

  It isn’t life or death, but it IS an arena in which your opponent is doing their best to knock you out: in other words, a fully resisting partner. If a technique can work in this environment, then that would strongly imply it is a viable technique.

  Interestingly enough, the US military has recently moved towards a BJJ-influenced curriculum for its hand-to-hand training. BJJ was arguably the starting point for MMA in the US, and could now legitimately be called a ‘battlefield art’, as in it has been utilised on a battlefield, in a life-or-death situation.

  E.g., see this thread:

  http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1279786

• 35 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 22, 2007

  Slideyfoot,

  You are pulling that string of words in the wrong direction. My comment was specific to the central issue being asked… are certain techniques being taught and labelled by certain instructors as “dim mak” actually dim mak, or are they something else?

  I find it interesting when certain folks claim to be “masters” on this subject… yet they have never “walked the path” required to know this subject correctly and fully - nor did they study under someone who also “walked the path” in the Old Way. So it can lead to a credibility question, as to how the person “fully learned” these techniques?

  For example, certain folks have claimed they “fully understand” the lethal death strike aspect of this subject… but they never served in any capacity (i.e., military, law enforcement, etc.), in which they were forced by circumstances to legally take this subject to its hitghest outcome level. So how do they fully know them?

  Credible arts produce credible fighters. All martial arts styles have strengths and weaknesses. To become proficient in any martial art requires lots and lots of hard practice, and this includes sparring and matches and so forth. This has never been at issue.

  I am quite aware of the military martial arts training programs. Very respectfully, I have taught some classes myself at a few bases during my career.

  BJJ is one of many martial arts under contract to the military, and studied by the men and women in uniform. For example, where I am currently at, they also actively teaching classes in Goju-Ryu, Kempo, JKD, and TKD. Plus a few others. During Vietnam, Judo and TKD were in vogue, and were heavily used and effective. There are many fine martial arts training programs that have been taught and used. Warefare, like well-organized sparring matches and so forth, have a way of weeding out bad technique.

  About four years ago, we had Billy Blnks out here in the Gulf of Arabia teaching Tae Bo. The marines were all out in the sand, doing Tae Bo moves with Billy. His classes were very popular, that he taught hundreds of folks out here for several weeks. They also filmed everything for a DVD series he was making. Many of the participants walked away, commenting that they thought they could use some of those nifty Tae Bo moves in a real fight. So could it also legitimately be a “battlefield art?”

  Just my humble opinion.

  I wish you the very best on your training.

  Rick

• 36 slideyfoot // Jan 24, 2007

  Thanks for the response, Rick.

  I think you may have missed the point I was making, however. BJJ is not simply taught on a seminar basis, it is now an integral part of the Modern Army Combatives program. In other words, this is not a case of external instructors from some style or other popping along to a military base and saying “hey, want to see some tae-bo?”. It’s an actual part of required military curriculum.

  Perhaps I should have linked the article which crops up in that thread:

  http://www.moderncombatives.org/index.html

  leading to

  http://www.moderncombatives.org/training.html

  “In this same way the concept of dominant body position from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the base for Modern Combatives. The dominant positions are the spine that connects all of the techniques. ”

  Also here:

  http://www.moderncombatives.org/history.html

  “The Chief of Staff of the Army has recognized Combatives as one the blocks of the modern Soldier and formal instruction in the program is included in all Non-Commisioned Officer Education System and Officer Education System courses as well as being a requirment for graduationg Initial Entry Training and being included inthe Warrior Tasks List, required knowledge for every Soldier.”

• 37 Richard C. Bauer // Jan 25, 2007

  Hi Slideyfoot,

  In reference to your post, in which you mentioned:

  “I think you may have missed the point I was making, however. BJJ is not simply taught on a seminar basis, it is now an integral part of the Modern Army Combatives program. ”

  No, I fully understood your post. I am quite familiar with the martial arts training program you are referencing, along with the others. And I am fully aware of how they are being used in the field. I am in the Gulf of Arabia right now, and I have been since shortly after 9/11.

  BJJ is one of several martial styles currently under contract for long-term training of the uniform military services. There are a number of such programs that exist. BJJ is a excellent art. But it is not the only one being actively utilized.

  Anyway, I have spent enought time on this subject. I wish you the very best on your continued training.

  All the best from the Gulf of Arabia,

  Rick

• 38 ambulocetus // Feb 17, 2007

  For the most part, I agree with Mr Bauer, but I posit that he may be perhaps too polite. If you go to youtube and start looking at videos of old asian masters there is always some UFC fan there calling these old guys names.Saying that a 94 year old practicing QiGong is a fairy and that he should jump in the ring is just disrespectful. Unless you are a soldier, a cop or a professional athlete martial arts is about one thing: self improvement. Judging by what I’ve seen BJJ/MMA are about as effective in this regard as watching Hulk Hogan bash Andre the Giant with a folding chair. Self improvement includes respect. These dogmatic BJJ nazis remind me of creationists. It doesn’t matter how well you explain things, they won’t listen. I agree that if Dillmans technique were real he probably could win a UFC, but thats no reason to sneer at the average non-professional trying to improve the quality of life. Yes, if I got into the ring with a Gracie I would get my a$$ handed to me, but I’m skinny and over 40. I say rolling around on the ground in a dark alley playing grab-a$$ with a mugger when broken bottles and used hypodermic needles are all over is about as smart as going to a Dillman seminar.

• 39 Richard C. Bauer // Feb 18, 2007

  In reference to ambulocetus’ post, in which he said (in part)…

  “[In reference to Rick’s e-mail]…I posit that he may be perhaps too polite. ”

  Thank you. You are a true martial artist.

  Very respectfully,

  Rick

• 40 mmabjj // Feb 19, 2007

  Mr. Bauer, have you ever trained with Amulocetus? Then how can you know if he is a true martial artists?

  Aye, there’s the rub.

  We have different ideas about what a martial artist is.

  Mine? That you know how to fight.

  Yours? (apparently) That you can speak with feigned honour.

  Much as you all like to talk about honour, respect, tradition, all that gubbins, let’s not lose sight of what the martial arts were created for.

  To teach people how to fight.

  All the rest is secondary, no?

• 41 Richard C. Bauer // Feb 19, 2007

  mmabjj,

  I respect your opinions, but I do not agree with you. I am sorry that you do not respect mine.

  I wish you the very best in your training.

  R

• 42 geemann // Aug 4, 2007

  I agree with you on all your points Rick. I respectfully do not believe there are a lot of talented or enlightened martial artists with knowledge of DM participating in UFC etc. I can say that I know for a fact that pressure points are real. Boxers know there is a point to the lower jaw on the side of the chin that when hit with the correct angle will result in a knockout. [basic] Cavity press, sleeper holds, etc. are not as refined as DM but very real and very obvious. I believe that those who have knowledge of acupuncture understand DM better than most martial artists. A blow with correct angle to the side of the neck causes an immediate drop in blood pressure and respiration no matter what time of day or night its done. If you have 12 hours a day to perfect DM then I believe it is possible to obtain the full measure of this art. I believe there are better techniques, to improve and advance a martial artist and benefit your entire being. I also believe there are even more deadly and esoteric arts than DM but lets not go there. This has turned into the same old; “what works and what does not work discussion”

• 43 thesnare // Sep 4, 2007

  this may offer a better explanation as to how and why it works, uses anatomical explanations rather than the mystic chi energy one.

  http://www.taiji.net/old_yang.html

• 44 Richard C. Bauer // Sep 6, 2007

  In reference to the post from “the snare,” I have attached an old article I wrote about 10 years ago, which hopefully will provide some additional and relevant information.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

  A PRIMER ON PRESSURE POINTS

• 45 thesnare // Sep 6, 2007

  Is choking really similar to dim mak? Choking is interrupting the flow of breath, not pressure points.

• 46 geemann // Sep 6, 2007

  It would depend on what you call a choke. My understanding of what a, sleeper hold would be, “Compression of the Arteries” on the sides of the neck
  [What is sometimes called; “Sealing the Vein”] Of course crushing someones windpipe with a choke, [or with a blow that would cause the neck muscles to contract and block the flow of air] would not be Dim Mak as most people understand it. There are however different levels in the art that are frequently misunderstood. There are also levels that combine, “Sealing the breath” with “Sealing the Vein” as they are sometimes called. There is also
  a level that was practiced with striking rice paper with the fingers for penetration. This was referred to as; “Poison Hand” and no, they did not use poison in their fingernails or anything like that. [IMHO] This was the Dim Mak that I believe most people have trouble understanding. It had to do with certain strikes, [and combinations] performed at certain times of day or night that would correspond to certain vital points and organs of the body as practiced in Traditional Chinese Medicine. With all due respect to George and the other proponents of the art, I don’t believe it is something you can learn in a seminar, or without much thought, practice, and meditation. Is it hidden in different forms, and positions of martial arts? I believe to some extent it is, but that is not unusual given the limitless number of forms in combat. Because I don’t practice Dim Mak, I can only offer my opinions. I am a semi retired martial artist and musician. In no way am I a master of the subject. As soon as I have time I will check the website postings again, but for now I have too much practicing to do. Good Luck!

• 47 geemann // Sep 6, 2007

  One thought I would like to add to my last comments are that some of the arts like DM are not practical to our way of life today. We are not monks with nothing but time on our hands, [we have jobs] we wear more restrictive clothing for the most part and the world has changed. [The only constant] The arrival of gunpowder, and the Boxer Rebellion, changed Martial Arts, Combat, and History forever. They are still however, “Arts” and sometimes, “very effective”

• 48 Tom // Sep 6, 2007

  You are all off your rockers. This is a bunch of non-sense

• 49 geemann // Sep 7, 2007

  I think every opinion is useful, even yours! I believe Bruce said to take whats useful and discard the rest. [Good Advise!] I think there are a lot of good opinions, and useful information here. Richard, and Ricks comments make a lot of sense and answer a lot of questions to those who take the time to read them. Hats off to those that have given the subject some thought whatever your opinion is!

• 50 Richard C. Bauer // Sep 13, 2007

  The body has many locations where a sufficient strike will cause a specific level of trauma. Because the body functions along certain physical laws, the ancient Chinese were able to experiment with applied trauma patterns, and figure out many types of strikes that could consistently produce a very predictable outcome. The problem is, some modern authors (as well as some martial arts instructors) do not understand all this. Not all the material that has been published on this subject is well researched, accurate, or ground in fact.

  The traditional dim-mak attack patterns handed down by the Old Masters targeted specific acupoint centers along the 12 main Chi meridians and the 2 midline collaterals. Within the Okinawan Bubishi, a number of these strike patterns are described. 36 of these strike patterns were considered the highest order (dim mak), and 72 were considered lower order strike patterns (dim hseuh and dim ching)… for a total of 108 patterns. There is some slight variation in the composition of these lists between the various schools of thought.

  As an academic example, there are a number of strike patterns that have been medically shown, through modern clinical study, to have a specific cause-and-effect relationships to specific outcomes. If done correctly, these patterns are VERY regular and VERY consistent. Some of these strikes are very straight forward, and some are very complex. But it should also be noted that many also have certain dangers associated with them. Because of the risks of certain injury associated with practicing any type of martial arts program, I would strongly encourage anyone out there to seek out a highly qualified teacher, and learn these types of techniques through properly supervised study.

  There is no clear historical records of how the superstitions swirling around Dim Mak started, or the exact date. It is probable that they started as rumors, as rival clans in Asia competed for martial techniques which would give them an edge in a fight. And as part of that bravado, many claims also emerged… not all of which were true. By the boxer rebellion period (1899-1900), there were a number of commonly held Dim-Mak myths within the MA community… such as people could train in Gung-Fu to the point that they could kill people with just the slightest touch (or without any touch), and deflect bullets with their internal Chi energy, etc. These fables, unfortunately, continue to persist, and cloud and detract the public perception of this subject.

• 51 geemann // Sep 14, 2007

  Thanks for the clarification and information. Because healing, and Traditional Chinese Medicine are also a part of the learning curve, I think its important to learn how to bring someone out of a knockout at the same time or before pursuing this. Organ failure, etc. requires knowledge on how to reverse the damage. I only know of 2-3 masters who still have this knowledge. [perhaps there are more, I don’t know] One source and good authority would be, Erle Montaigue at; http://www.taijiworld.com Richard already put it as well as I have heard it. Its difficult to pin down all the sets and subsets and modifications that are part of the nature of Chinese Martial Arts. As such, I think I understand why there is so much I don’t understand, if that makes any sense. DM is a good example. There are probably equal parts myth and fact.

• 52 Richard C. Bauer // Sep 14, 2007

  Hi Geemann,

  I agree with the obseravtions you have made, regarding the traditional health aspects / roots of dim-mak.

  In addition to what you wrote, I would respectfully add the following thoughts and observations:

  To humbly paraphrase my teacher, Dim Mak was originally the entire method of medical instruction for Chinese Doctors; their traditional philosophy being one of Yin and Yang, in that one must understand the healing aspect in order to understand the destructive aspect.

  The traditional Asian approach to medicine permeates the full curriculum of classical dim-mak theory and practice. It is one of the reasons why GrandMaster Walker and I chose the title “The Art of Life and Death” for our book on this subject. In China, a master instructor was required to show proficiency in both areas.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick Bauer

• 53 Leyton Jay // Sep 14, 2007

  Thanks for the excellant information and historical context. Fascinating.

  (PS. You can prevent spam in your blog using session variables hidden in the background, it’s cleaner than asking the user for the answers to formulae)

• 54 thesnare // Sep 14, 2007

  Also, people have said “If this works, why do we never see it in UFC/Pride/MMA?” small joint manipulations are banned in UFC, and according to wikipedia (though it doesn’t say so in the fouls section on the UFC website) pressure point strikes were banned in UFC 15, though there were previously both allowed.

• 55 thesnare // Sep 14, 2007

  Though I do think some more solid evidence is required, if mmabj and slideyfoot submit to pressure point strike from Duan Bao Hua and absolutely nothing happens, I’ll be totally convinced on their side of the argument. Yes, poor technique is poor technique, but on someone who has demonstrated it successfully on someone who doesn’t believe in it at all like them, then that will prove our side of the argument.

• 56 geemann // Sep 14, 2007

  Everyone is different! some folks are very visual in wanting evidence, some are not. We all respond differently. I will acknowledge that there can be a, Carnival, TV Evangelist, approach to Chi Gong demonstrations but the same could apply to some of the UFC fights I have witnessed. What ever happened to the element of surprise? If you know it is coming does it change the outcome? Speaking for myself, I have only used my very limited knowledge of pressure points for two things. First for pain relief, and once to assist a fellow worker who was suffering a seizure on the job. As Richard pointed out, Traditional Chinese Medicine is deeply rooted and integrated in the DM art. For me this is enough evidence without having visual evidence that some others demand. An interesting thought has come to me. Imagine that we were investigating Acupuncture instead of Dim Mak. I would be willing to bet that the same folks, with the same temperaments, and same opinions, would have the same or similar viewpoints that they do on Dim Mak LOL! BTW, I have not seen the video yet. I can understand some of the frustration, thesnare and others feel in their view for evidence. It really comes down to what you believe and what you don’t. These viewpoints will likely continue to repeat themselves long after this website is gone. I hope we all learn something from it.

• 57 thesnare // Sep 14, 2007

  Well, true, but we all have the same anatomy, the same pressure points, the same nerves and arteries, sometimes they can be anomalies, a person is born with six fingers or more, and some women CAN grow a beard, and of course everyone is unique unless they are an identical twin, but we all have the same DNA that makes us human and builds us the same way, either male or female from the point the egg becomes fertilized, so we should all have the exact same weak points.

  Also, something that’s objective doesn’t require belief, you’ll still fall if you don’t believe in gravity, and still get burned if you don’t believe in fire.

  Anyway, personally I hope this art is true, it seems like it could be useful, for self defense, perhaps even stunningly so. I took chin na, of which dim mak was a part of, never got that far up where were taught it, we mostly focused on joint and bone locks.

• 58 geemann // Sep 15, 2007

  Thats an interesting comment you make. Its not what I meant by, “different” however. I was trying to make the point that we all process information differently. [including what we consider evidence] Some for example might be, “analytical”, some may process information more on a, “auditory” level. And finally there are a lot of people who will only accept, “hard visual evidence” only. Did the joint locks you learned with Chin Na work? By the way you are absolutely correct to connect Chin Na with Dim Mak. Both are usually part of a larger system like, Northern Shaolin and a few others. I just believe that if the locks work, the techniques work, acupuncture works, [at least I believe it does] Then why would I doubt that Dim Mak would not work? I believe its a very, “dated art” but I would never dismiss it outright, or worse yet refer to it as, fake or nonsense! Everyone says, lets test it, but it is always on someone else’s terms! What would be gained? Is it that important for the individuals with doubts, or is it more important for the art to survive? My own question is on, how long does it take to really learn it along with Chinese Medicine? I have no doubt it will knock you out.
  I could go to a George Dillman seminar and see a knockout! Are they all brainwashed students that have already made up their minds before dropping under nausea? possibly? but I am not volunteering to find out. Another thing I would like to point out is that most of the real masters of this art are getting along in their years. Does anyone really expect one of these guys to suit up and jump in the ring with the Gracie’s? [when they don’t have a point to prove in the first place?]

• 59 thesnare // Sep 15, 2007

  Yes, the locks in Chin na did work, I could definitely feel some pain when someone used it on me. My classes were with Dr Yang-Jwing Ming, you may have heard of him. He was Black Belt magazine’s artist of the year once, in Kung-fu
  http://www.yangsmartialarts.com

  However, the mechanism for those locks is well known, as he explains, your twisting the bone or tendon in an unnatural way, a way it’s not supposed to or designed to go, sending pain sensations to the brain, doing damage. It should be noted that he is also a PhD in mechanical engineering, so he definitely knows how to view things with a scientific mindset. There’s a breakdown of how exactly each subset of chin na works, here:

  http://www.yangsandover.com/programs.shtml?page=categories

  All of them seem to have sensible, reasonable explanations, except the one with the mystical chi energy, Dian Mai. If something works, it works, if it can be observed, and isn’t being faked, but this seems to be just a semi-religious explanation, like how before we knew what made people sick we had the 4 humors of the body explanation.

  I’m just taking into consideration that stuff that’s been posted in this thread and being objective here. George Dillman was also mentioned here as being a fraud, and there’s a link in this thread with him explaining as to why one of his dim mak moves didn’t work. I’m leaning towards that he is a not a credible source of information, it seems. If Dim-mak is real, he at least isn’t a qualified practitioner.

  I think it would be useful to have a session where it was used on UFC fighter, either a demonstration, or where the fighter is fully resisting and trying to hit the person. In Fact, I may wear pads and have someone really try to hit me while doing chin na joint locks, so I know I could do it in a real situation.

• 60 geemann // Sep 15, 2007

  Thanks for the links, I was trying to remember Dr. Ming earlier and have read many of his books, vids etc. He is one of the leading authorities on the subject and an awesome instructor! What bothers me is the trend of a lot of people and martial artists to refer to Chi as being, “mystical”. Some instructors seem to have the same take without really understanding what it is, and how it functions. There are probably as many misconceptions about it as there is with Dim Mak. William Chen went to some lengths to explain Tai Chi as, “Body Mechanics” some years ago. Sometimes I think
  terms like, leverage, balance, weight, etc would better be understood if it were left in Chinese terms. Sometimes translations to english do not have a suitable equivalent that really explain it correctly. If you think of Chi, or Dim Mak as being, ” mystical” you set yourself up for misinformation right away. [in my opinion] I am very much in agreement with you, and I think it is a good thing to question your training, and even, “test” it. It keeps Martial Arts healthy and weeds out some of the scams. Having said that, I disagree with the brothers who show disrespect and issue blatant challenges to others with an air of arrogance. Believe it or not, both sides of the fence need one another. Sportsmanship, and respect is where it all should start. If you want to test Dim Mak in a resisting environment, I see nothing wrong with that concept.
  You should probably keep it real and skip the pads though. [unless you were to wear them all the time] It would be rather difficult to apply the technique with an extremely limited target area I would think. I agree that a fully resisting opponent is much different than, 1-2 step sparring! No rocket science there! As for George Dillman, I have not been aware of what the controversy was. I am just getting back to classes after a long layoff. I am hoping to get together with some UW students this quarter and get back to a training practice schedule. I would urge you, and any others who are interested in Chi, [or don’t understand it] to check out all of the top notch Tai Chi, Bagua, instructors we have in the Seattle, and Eastside areas. There are so many great Chi Gong
  teachers it would not be fair to name one. You cant go wrong!
  We are very fortunate to have them! They could explain much better than I could, the Chi concept. Good Luck with your training and quest!

• 61 thesnare // Sep 16, 2007

  It’s actually Dr Yang, (there’s someone named Kathy Yang, who is on his site, and probably his daughter) usually in Chinese and Japanese Families, the family name comes first. Then, when they come over here, where our last names come last, they switch it, to be more compatible with Western Society.

  Maybe I will ask Dr Yang sometime about if he does Dim Mak demonstrations, and he could do a minor one on me.

  What you mention about respect and sportsmanship is something I’ve thought about at length. Sports like boxing and UFC, which can be considered both martial arts, don’t have the same element that something karate and aikido do. Dr Yang’s classes were small, and very, very informal, there were no belts, uniforms, or salutes of any kind. It seems that was reserved for the Kung-Fu classes he taught (the Kung Fu guys who also took Chin Na would have to salute at the end of class) but, I’ve been to others such as when I took karate at around 7 years old (just a few classes) we had to call the teacher sensei, salute, and respect rules. As well as this Aikido school I saw in which they said their salutes at the beginning and endof class in traditional Japanese style, wore gaea’s, etc. Boxing and UFC don’t have this element of respect it seems.

  In martial arts movies, there needs to be some kind of conflict between good and evil. So, they create some kind of evil martial arts practitioners, like in the Karate Kid movies, that movie Showdown with Billy Blanks, an 80’s movie called “No Retreat, No surrender” (Van Damme’s first movie- he was the bad guy)

  But, just how common are these evil martial arts schools and teachers in real life? Remember in The Karate Kid 1, Mr Miyagi says that there’s no such thing as a bad student, only a bad teacher, then how did the teacher become bad? Somewhere along the line, the student must have betrayed a good teacher (see Dragonheart, for example) and passed it on to his students. But, I just wondered if there are any schools, where the teacher doesn’t care if his students abuse his teachings. There was one Karate school around here where the teacher went looking at some kids at recess to make sure they weren’t abusing his teachings, trying to intimidate and bully kids with his art. Now, that’s a good teacher!

• 62 Chris // Sep 16, 2007

  Thank you all for your comments. In an effort to keep this related to Dim Mak, I will remind you that these other topics have been discussed elsewhere:
  What Every Martial Artist Should Know About Chi and TCM
  Do You Have a Comprehensive Testing Plan?
  Scarcity and Abundance in Martial Arts Instruction

  thesnare, I hope that last comment about the Karate teacher was sarcasm!

• 63 geemann // Sep 16, 2007

  I stand corrected, and in no way intended disrespect to Dr. Yang
  I wish I would have had the opportunity to meet him. He is in fact someone I would consider an authority for the subject of Dim Mak. Most traditional teachers teach the way they were taught. I just thought that if you have a problem with his explanation, perhaps another instructor could explain it better.
  [Some of his books on Yang style are very different than others]
  They are packed with a lot of knowledge and presented with his own particular style. I am not sure where you were going with all the movie quotes. Maybe you need a Dim Mak demonstration to convince you, I think you are sincere! For myself, there are a few things I wont do. Crab fish in Alaska, Jump out of a plane, hang from a peak with my knuckles, or set myself up as a, “Dim Mak Dummy” You have an opportunity to learn what a lot of us would like to know about
  the subject through your instructor. If I were you I would take advantage of it. Sometimes you have to study for years, [through advanced fighting sets] before you can, “test it” Hang with it! questions will be answered and good things will happen. I also need to reach some of those goals!

• 64 thesnare // Sep 17, 2007

  No, it wasn’t sarcasm, he was just making sure that they weren’t abusing what he was teaching him, which I think is good, you don’t? Wish I could have e-mailed this to you however.

• 65 geemann // Sep 17, 2007

  Unless we can find someone who has mastered Dim Mak to weigh in, I think we have just about exhausted this subject. There are a lot of good links, and information but any more discussion might stray from the topic. I am ready to move on.
  Thanks for the discussion!

• 66 Chris // Sep 17, 2007

  thesnare, anyone can email me from the About link at the top of the page. I don’t think that a Karate teacher who watches other people’s children on the playground is doing his job.

• 67 #9 // Oct 11, 2007

  i hear dim mak is very deadly. i have 2 questions though
  1. how long would it take to learn it
  2. is there anything basic that can be taught?

• 68 Richard C. Bauer // Oct 16, 2007

  Hi #9,

  In reference to your post, I would respectfully offer the following:

  In terms of your first question, in which you asked “How long would it take to learn [Dim Mak]”… in many ways, this is dependent on the student, and their willingness to learn, and the quality and skill of their teacher.

  VIEWPOINT #1: To properly learn Dim Mak the old traditional way, it would take years and years of hard work, practice and study, directly under a qualified master instructor. The whole curriculum was originally based on the 36-chamber sequence (such as in Shaolin, prior to the Boxer Rebellion period), and usually took ten full years of hard study… 12+ hours a day, 6 days a week. It was very, very difficult.

  VIEWPOINT #2: Some modern teachers allege that they have reverse-engineered Dim-Mak through research and experimentation, and claim that they have perfected a number of training sequences and methods, which will cut thru all the “chaffe,” and can teach you everything you need to know about Dim Mak in about one year. In the late 90’s, there was one American teacher who was quoted in a British Martial Arts magazine, stating that modern students don’t have the time to spend in training like they did in Asia prior to World War II. He claimed to devise modern teaching methods, that purport to teach students advanced and complicated techniques, such as Dim Mak, through a series of one-hour seminars.

  In terms of your second question, in which you asked “Is there anything basic that can be taught [about Dim Mak]?”… yes. But the value of what you will learn and receive is highly dependent on how you are studying / training, and so forth.

  A Martial Art, at its most central tenant, is about fighting and self-defense. If you study a subject incorrectly, it can limit what you are able to respond with in a real threat situation. The old masters always stressed learning the basics of self defense first, and then building up from there. I would strongly encourage you to study under a qualified teacher, and practice, practice, practice.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 69 #9 // Oct 16, 2007

  well it would be hard to find some one who would teach me dim mak but id be willing to learn.right now im in tacoma were everyone uses knifes or guns and what not. i don’t have either. i do know and somewhat rememberbasic blocking from when i was in karate a while back but that was a while back. if i could learn dim mak i could defend myself over here a bit better. ill try to look for a teacher though, i think i might have the time to learn. the jobs im applying for don’t have postition and the my lady is in germany so i rarely talk to her. so learning dim mak would be a good way to learn to defend my self and kill time.

• 70 Richard C. Bauer // Oct 16, 2007

  Hi #9,

  I know the Tacoma area very well. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, and went to college down in Parkland.

  Some self-styled teachers of “Dim Mak” purport that it can be learned through a series of short cut, of sorts, to training, and can be employed quickly and effectively in simple, easy steps. There are also modern claims that it is simply about hitting accupoints… so anyone can rapidly learn it, and in doing so, “increase their power 10x.” I do not agree with this position. In my humble opinion, these types of views are contrary to proper training, are wholy incorrect, misleading, and irresponsible.

  Based on your follow-up post, I would strongly recommend that you find a really good instructor in the Tacoma area, in a martial style you like, and work on learning the basics of self defense first. This will require lots of hard work and hard practice, and probably several years of study.

  Dim Mak is all about precision striking. It should not be viewed as the starting point of a martial arts training program. It is the refinement and further advancement of skill, and should only be done after a student has reached a certain proficiency in their training. In Asia, advanced concepts like Dim Mak were only taught after the student had fully demonstrated the necessary prerequisite skill base. This consisted (in part) of lots and lots of free sparring training, hard workouts and practice, and so forth. In the old schools, the proper study of Dim Mak was never rushed, and it was never partially taught. The training only began after the student had reached the necessary proficiency in the basic skill sets of fighting; such as blocking, striking, etc., as determined by their instructor. This could only be reaced after seveal years of serious study and practice, and lots of hard work and dedication. Otherwise, the student was not properly skilled enough to employ it effectively, correctly, or wisely.

  Very Respectfully,

  Rick

• 71 Kendrick // Nov 8, 2007

  I just stumbled upon this site in search of Dim Mak material, because I experienced Dim Mak a few years back. A good friend of my uncle’s introduced me to it, because I was being a typical eighteen-year-old who thought of himself as invincible. After knocking both of my arms out of commision, I realized I should have kept my mouth shut. Now, I’m trying to find a few training materials for my own study, since he will not train someone who has not already achieved a black belt, and then he tests them himself. I have experience in several martial arts already (Tae Kwon Do, Kendo, Tai Chi, and Goju-Ryu). Do you have any recommendations on books/DVDs? Thanks for your time.

• 72 Grave // Dec 21, 2007

  Hi to all it is a very interesting subject, I do belive in the soft fist tech and the Dim Mak, but until I can “feel” the 3 points your out tech I will have 100% aceptance in it until then only 80% much of that is because I have been in fight of masses (more than 20 guys were you dont know whos friend or foe) and some guys do have pressure point tech training but could not use it becaus of X manner and end up in the hospital with 4 broken ribs and crying, while the just kick that motha ****er end up “winning” im sure the techs work but only in people that can think under pressure of were and how to anyone can learn but if at the point of practice you dont recall what you lear it dosent work…. Im currently learning general taijitsu…. will stick to swords till I get it…. there will always be a stick pipe or X to use as a sword…. NOTE: I do belive the thing is not 100% till I experience it first hand in “combat” just sparing will do it ^_^

• 73 Farmer // Jan 6, 2008

  Despite everything, I think that everyone’s culture should be treated with respect. I mean- and this does sound weird- they’re not hurting anyone, are they?

  Besides, it’s one thing to scoff at a load of martial artists when you watch them practice on YouTube, but I bet that not one of us would even consider going two rounds with them.

  Viva la differance

• 74 DAN HILL // Jan 19, 2008

  i have trained in wing chun for 4 years and boxing 6 years. i have experiance fighting in a ring and on the street. we are taught to protect the arm pit in bieu jue becaus this is a dim mok presure point. the autery ther goes right to the hart if you are hit with a full force strike there it will kill you! our wooden dummy set contains dim mok seqences. a chi strike is a internal strike when aplied to a dim mak point its fatel. theas masters train there mind and body behind closed doors developing unherd of skills. look at what we have seen showlin monks doing even now. no teacher is going to teach you this with a concence its like handing out a loaded gun registerd to the teacher! dim mak is not for sporting events its to save your life. the fienix fist has no mecy.

• 75 mike // Jan 26, 2008

  one touch one kill now or later i have seen it.

• 76 Hugo Olivares Mila // Feb 13, 2008

  Good Day Richard C. Bauer I had buy your book and is on the way! Any way before i read the wonderful book i wonder one thing! Do you had read the books of Master , Dr Pier Tsui-Po ? If yes Did you get good inspirations on his books? I wonder because I read somewhere that Dr Pier Tsui-Po said that many of the books out there didn’t mention the points of Dim Mak right, or something like that!?

  Any way any comments of Dr Pier Tsui-Po books it would be nice! And do you have plan on read them ( if you have not) before writing another Dim Mak book?

  http://www.goldenlion.com.au/home/dim_mak.htm

  Thank you and have a nice day!

  PS. I had been done a interesting thread in the Shen Men Tao Forum http://www.shenmentao.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=427