Read This Before You Invent a New Martial Arts Style

21 responses so far ↓

• 1 Dan Paden // Sep 6, 2008

  I think that the number of people who really have time to thoroughly understand even one old system, let alone several, is very small and that it requires a certain amount of cheek for a person to think he can improve substantially on systems that he very likely doesn’t fully understand in the first place.

  I is apparent to me that I will be mining Naihanchi Shodan for information for years to come. Likewise with Sanchin and Seisan.

  I told my oldest son not too long ago that though my knowledge of tuite is trifling compared to my instructor’s, it is still enough that had I walked into the Taekwon-do dojangs I once trained in with it, I would have been mistaken for a jujutsuka. In a martial arts world where most knowledge is that superficial, claims of someone, especially someone with less than forty or fifty years of experience, coming up with something genuinely new under the sun generally strike me as overblown.

• 2 Cobra-Kai // Sep 6, 2008

  every martial artist has his own unique fighting style and u can’t break a martial art because there is nothing to break and if there is we hav’nt broken it yet

• 3 words twice // Sep 6, 2008

  First you have to define “broken”.

• 4 Jay L. Gischer // Sep 6, 2008

  Martial arts styles are hard to evaluate this way. Let’s say you can demonstrate a weakness in someone’s skills. Is that necessarily a weakness in the style, or a weakness in the training of that particular individual? Not easy to say.

  In addition, every form of training has it’s weaknesses and its strengths. For example, I train Tai Chi and jujitsu. There are many similarities, but one really important difference in the way training is done. I’ve never seen anyone fall down at all in Tai Chi. Some teachers have told me it forms a bad habit, the habit of going to the ground. And many senior jujitsu people will tell you that going to ground is a very bad thing when more than one oppponent is involved. So that’s a sort of weakness.

  On the other hand, fights often go to ground despite our best efforts, and jujitsuka are going to be more prepared for that. This is a tradeoff in training strategy, not a system that is “broken”.

• 5 Chris // Sep 6, 2008

  words twice,
  Extending the IT security analogy: a system is “broken” when an attacker, armed with a small amount of knowledge, can overwhelm a defender with a large amount of resources.

  Consider, for example, the security-minded homeowner who installs two expensive deadbolts on their front door, but leaves their basement window open. Theirs is a broken system.

• 6 Rick Matz // Sep 6, 2008

  We practice breakfalls in my Taijiquan class.

• 7 Thomas // Sep 6, 2008

  If we use the security analogy, a martial arts system’s competency can be translated into efficiency of combat. Of course, this alone brings up problems that depend on where you are under what circumstances. The “broken” style would be the one that fails to another style (with the idea of personalized styles in mind) under these conditions.

  In something like MMA, you see similar styles have failed against other similar styles. In the security analogy, these would likely be designers from the same school. All are separate, but learned from the same place and thus have similar weaknesses. Therefore you might even have a larger broken system: the school that produced them.

• 8 Karate_and_Taiji_student // Sep 8, 2008

  Excellent questions!

  A few comments that come to my mind:
  - I don’t think efficiency in combat is a good measure of a Martial Arts style. To begin with, you cannot let two styles compete, you can only let students compete who practiced at specific schools who claim to teach/focus on a certain “style”.
  - If a student is no good at competing, who is to blame then? The student herself, the teacher, the school or the style?
  - “Competing” depends on the rules of the competition. Obviously, someone who practices with a specific set of rules in mind is going to do better at such a competition than someone who practices with different rules. But does that necessarily say something about the Martial Art? Or rather about the rules of the competition?
  - In a competition with “truly” no rules, the fighter who wields her gun best is (most likely) going to win. Therefore, is a gun slinger the ultimate Martial Artist?
  - If not, why should the gunslinger devote her practice time on less effective techniques like kicking and punching?
  - Everybody has different goals in mind, Martial Arts competitions may or may not be among them. However, is learning a Martial Art without sparring really a Martial Art or just some elaborate dance?
  - I like the excerpt on the self-assessment a lot. It shows a problem that’s not limited to Martial Arts, but in general to “self-observation”. It is not always easy to find an expert who can tell me exactly what is wrong with my way of doing something. Sometimes I might even refuse to listen. Other times I might be doing things right and the self-proclaimed expert might have the problem of limited self-observation.

• 9 Dunken Francis // Sep 11, 2008

  Aikido (the art I’ve been ucky enough to be involved in since childhood) is reknowned for people branching out and defining a new style. My feeling is that this is mainly due to a mixture of ego (in that they need to be regonized) and fear of ‘not-being’good-enough”. If you are the “head” of a style, you are by definition the best at it. My admiration and respect more often goes out to sensei in remote locations, that toil away running sometimes small organisations, dutifully studying their chosen art,.

• 10 Jonathan E. Kiser // Sep 11, 2008

  I think you ask very valid questions and present mature attitude about what it would take to develop a “new style” or “system” of martial arts. As far as the “what have you broken” analogy goes I certainly agree. I add that one can break another martial artist but an impersonalized entity such as a style or system presents a different problem. Theoretically, if the situation is idea- any martial art style or system can be virtually “unbreakable”. This was what I faced in the developmental stages of the training approach that I promote known as “ICC” or “Integrated Combative Concepts”.
  Prior to the inception of the ideas that formed ICC I had 15 years of martial arts experience in multiple systems and multiple instructorship levels. However, I felt a driving need to test the “claims” of these martial arts ranging from Jiu-Jitsu to Kali-Silat. What I did was arrange “friendly get togethers” with martial artist of similar and different systems, including brawlers and braggarts. We all agreed through a liabilt release form to do anything short of putting each other in the hopital or maiming or disfiguring each other. It was as close to any fight I have ever seen and was to par with what I have viewed in many MMA matches. Yikes, we had some very close calls! However, through 5 plus years of formulation I was able to determine with the aid of my trusty staff what was universally applicable and what required overly exact timing or too special of a set up to be practical. I was blown away at what was touted in these systems to be expressly effective when all of our fights showed them marginally applicable at best. What works best is what is simple and easliy ingrained into one’s skill set or toolbox.
  Yes and No, I created nothing new- I discovered some pretty new stuff- things I haven’t seen in all my training. I ahve even went to very advanced teachers of different systems and couldn’t get the same results from my “live hands-on enlightenment” training. I admit all martial arts have something of great value to offer. The point is this, each martial art has specialties, no any one art specializes in everything. It is up to us to fill in the spots. This is close to JKD but also beyond JKD. I am not going to follow a drill, pattern, idea, or technique (no matter how cool it looks) unless I can pressure test it and discover what it can do for me. What works for me may not work for you. However, there are certain universal combat motions if applied correctly and trained correctly can virtually work for anybody (provided they have the mind-body connection to do so). In ICC we focus on these UCM’s because “You See EM” in almost any altercation between skilled and unskilled opponents. We amplify these abilities. If that is a new system then so be it..if not so what..as long as it works!

• 11 Human to God // Oct 15, 2008

  There are only proficient students in martial arts.
  As long as they study the common basic principles which are the basis for all martial arts.
  This is from a lifestyle training point of view.
  Mainly because the best martial artist wins without actually having to physically defeat their opponent.

  However in regarding, UFC/Pride fights, normal tourney fights, other full contact fights, and actual ‘fight club style’ fights(which I participated in from ages 16-25… and probably annually now because with my jobs , some injuries might stop me from working) there are certain principles that work better depending on the rules and pace of the particular fight.
  Weight classes, targets, restricted techniques and similar require a fighter to developed refined skills in certain areas.

  Grappling isnt really needed in point scoring competitions.
  But a lot of the MMA guys dominate with it in the octagon.

  In the open fights I participated in, it was hard to predict who would win. We had a nice good mixture of fighters from different places.
  Eventually we had to get attorneys because we did get some people who talked about lawsuits in case they got injured, but for the most part we just took it instride.
  We pretty much allowed anything except weapons, and would stop fights if it seemed like the person would get too badly injured. But I myself obtained several concussions, dislocated joints, broken ribs, elbows, and a kneee break. Some of which I could have avoided by tapping our or giving up, but I actually won many of the matches in which I sustained injuries just because I kept fighting.

  Anyway… I have done demonstrations for some associates as far as self defense and have been asked to teach.
  I started training at age 10 and now I am 30 years old.
  However most of my training was private training in seminars and small groups. Mainly because the local dojos I trained at were good, but did not touch my spirit.
  So I have declined on all counts.
  Mainly because even though I practice daily and still attend seminars and some classes, I do not feel I will ever qualify to teach anyone.

  I thought about gathering things I know together and trying to make a cohesive training regimen. but it did not work because its like certain things cannt be explained in words or just through showing.
  Some things have to be grasped by the student.

  Anyway.. dont know if I really answered anyone’s questions… just felt like sharing.

• 12 Tomislav Bazant // Nov 19, 2008

  Greetings! Sorry for my bad english in advance…

  I think that style can`t be broken as such. If you got speed and power you can break any opponent with a single punch…that doesnt mean that style is poor. But lets say that every fighter got same speed, same power and same mental ability. If you apply many different styles to these fighters, best style would emerge because best style is the style that uses minimum energy and no movements that counter body`s natural system of movement. That is the best style. I trained Baguazhang Dong style, Bagua Qi gong and Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jutstu. I also studied some other Wushu practises and efficiency of their movements. I found out that you can use any style if you want to defeat a person that knows nothing of martial arts, but if you want to defeat the master, than you got to have very proficient and economic style and great speed. Every known style has a flaw…thats my conclusion and thats because every style has a flaw in philosophy that was its wellspring. So I decided to create a new, simple style with simple and valid philosophy. I just started. Punch line is…philosophy of my new style is forcing practicioner to move properly and with least perturbations in movements with least amounts of energy used. Everything comes natural, with or without opponent. I will share it with everyone when I create more forms(movement cycles and logics that supports it) and write down principals. So when you ask if you can break a style…the answer is NO! You can only break human body…nothing more. Maybe masters are better learners of new fighting concepts but other side of the coin says that you cant learn old dog a new trick. Like scientists…if everything they now is based on couple of principals and one day someone discovers that they are false, they would have gigantic problem of overcoming that fact…layman wouldnt because they dont have system of knowledge intergrated in their mind. So…lets just wait and see…surprise always come from unexpected directions. Lets not underestimate anyone and maybe we will learn something new.

  Best regards,
  Tomislav (Croatia)

• 13 Dick Alves // Apr 18, 2009

  About, “to break a style”,

  The author of this thread do have an interesting point to make. But I would say that the one thing the author is aming at, does not nessesary have abything to do with the other. In my poor english I can try to explain what I mean.
  By inventing a new product for the people, one does not nessesary need to have the aim at breaking something thats old. I find it hard to believe that the Thaiboxers from Thailand, invented their style and had an aim at beating the Judokas from Japan. Why would that even be a point in doing so? When creating a new song, one is not trying to beat the other songs or artists or music styles. What sounds good in my ears, I prefer to listen to, if I dont like the sound I turn it of or switch chanel if possible. I believe the same goes with Martial Arts, there are billions of people out there, at least a million different martial arts would be needed to pop up to this world in order to make them all satisfied in joining our sports. Thai Chi goes for some, no matter if a wrestler would make them stay in a hospital for weeks after an encounter, and boxing goes for others.
  I my self have been doing most martial arts since I was 7 years of age and Ive been competing and holding classes in most of them and I´ve been in the game for over 30 years. I believe that there will be new fight sports comming up, both for the sake of the demanding sports viewers, and also for the sake of the fighters. There are really great sports of fighting out there, and if youre talking about the “fight” in martial arts then there will allways be people who feel, for example, that the piont system rules are not fair and that something “new” needs to pop up to make it more fair. And if a totaly new pointsystem in a sport comes up, well then you might need to start training in a complete new fashion, and if the old fashion is gone for the people seeking the new style, well then the new sport is born.
  Long thread, I know, but my point is clear as you can see. Something “new” does not have to try to “break” something old, even if that happends to be the result in some ways.

  Take care you all and stay well

• 14 silent and grey // Jun 19, 2009

  you cannot just create a new martial art. the ones we have already have been evolving for hundreds of years and so will continue to evolve. but all martial arts are limited to there own style. it is the student who is not limited. as a student myself i have practiced, ninjutsu, jujitsu, aikido, thai boxing, western boxing, wing chung and karate. i have not stayed more than three years in any of the arts i practiced. however i feel confident in my own ability and knowledge of what i have learnt. out of all the arts i have done, ninjutsu was the one that challenged me more and encouraged me to learn other martial arts. it tought me to be flexible with my training and to always introduce new elements. i have come to the conclusion that new martial arts will develop over time but they will be hybrids, crosses of other arts. the only martial arts that will survive will be the ones that allow change. eventualy and ultimatley leaving one art, this being a combination of all arts. all the excess will be removed leaving only knowledge without style, where you are judged or graded, not on your ability to remember set moves or paterns but more on your adaptation to the form you are learning. you will not wear a belt to show your seniority as it will be displayed in your behavior in every thing you do. i leave any one who reads this with a qoute.

  i follow no book, only the pages i have torn!

• 15 S.Smith // Jun 19, 2009

  What if…the best security system is one that is broken?

  Or: no security system…could it be that relaxing eventually reduces the reactive potential of the body. That, after reducing residual tension and eliminating False Evidence that Appears Real, we might never need the security system?

  Like an Ode to Joy…

  It’s my impression of the Ancienty Masters that they got so burly, they didn’t need to defend themselves, and, at that point, they each, on their own terms, begin teaching peace.

  Likewise, when I was younger, I had a roommate who had a shroud of thieving in his reputation. When I lived with him, I owned close to nothing, and nothing that interested him. I was one among few of his roommates who did not experience loss.

  Back to the martial, I’d maintain that inside, beneath the layers of common self-defense, lurks an instinctual, easy, survival mechanism that defies any martial system. And the best systems are designed to reveal That, rather than create a set of movement to superimpose on It.

  Last: a Wookiefoot quote: “The Monkeys were afraid of Nothing, so they locked themselves in cages for protection.”

• 16 Thyestean23 // Jul 14, 2009

  Each martial art was created or assembled by someone or some group of someones. Each was created with a purpose or function in mind that applied to the social-political climate of each respective time and circumstance. There was a point of birth, a moment of truth for all of them. The arts as we know them today are built on those foundations. Some have lasted longer than others based on the initial concept and some have verged away from the “old traditions”.

  Of all the developments, valid or not, change has been the only constant. Evolution has forced its way into nearly every art form and this evolution has been met with strong resistance by most all art forms. The basic idea being that no one man could devise or surpass the collective efforts of those that came before him. Especially, if that man is not, at least, as equally versed as those that come before him.

  I would tend to agree with this to an extent. Yet, if one is to became as versed as his or her master prior to inacting evolution how could one ever accomplish this in his or her lifetime. The vast concepts, styles, methods and opinions serve to help the martial arts world as much as they serve to hinder. I have seen things become so complicated that many have forgotten that all rivers return to the sea. Often times when this simplification is presented its mislabled a new creation when its truly the oldest of ideas.

• 17 josh young // Jul 14, 2009

  No two people do the same art in an identical way.,
  Uniqueness is as unavoidable as a lack of it.

  Few people have the obsessive nature required to master a new style as they create one. For those few there is no problem but for most people it is best to follow and not lead.

• 18 alex6789 // Oct 30, 2009

  The most outstanding thought of 21-st century in the martial arts!

  Timur Kuzgov is a first man around the world who made experiment with all kinds of methods in the martial arts and combined all these methods, which never combined before him. In his concept there are three types of martial arts methods. These are effective, ineffective and middle methods or something stands right between effective and ineffective. In first in the history of martial arts he mixed these three types of means and as a result he invented three systems and now we will describe only two of its which are really unique systems of combat.

  Timur says that his system of martial art “hardfight” consist of inefficient methods of all martial arts such as aikido, capoera, taekwondo, boxing, judo etc. Also he says about another technique, which he calls midfight. This technique consists of middle methods of all martial arts. Under the word “middle ” he means something between effective and ineffective methods. These are karate, judo, boxing, kungfu, taekwondoand many others. I need to say, – adds Timur, that a selection of these means for example ineffecient is individual process and not same for everybody because something that may be ineffective for me personally perhaps will effective for another person or it may be “middle” for him.

  The basic technique of kicking, parries, and stances, assimilated from capoera, and taekwondo in particular most complex methods. The style of fight seems like these martial arts with its wide, long strikes, circular, and semi circular kicks although it is something original. The basic technique of striking, parries, and stances benefited from kungfuand there are wide, long circular punches and parries by straight fingers of hand. A one of difference of the hardfight is that almost all strikes doing by finger tips as well as grabbling and neverstless it is a rare picture there are all techniques applying by counterclockwise rotation of the blade with a reverse leg, hand or without it. A manner of midfight’s fight seems like karate, but in any way it has essential distinction. For instance, basic kicks benefited from karate, taekwondo, execute by means of bended fingertips of leg and as you can see it makes difference. All kicks are semi crouched and not wide as well as not short. The leading punches benefited from karate, boxing, and hands commonly at hips level before it will strike by bended fingers. Moreover, these partisipants of body can grab an opponent! It is almost constant and leading form of hands. In the left stance a right hand pinned tight to hip and a leading hand near the hand, which is right, or both of hands may be at hips level.

  By the way, the inventor of martial arts tells that always reconsider his creation and change if it is necessary some principles, details, and positions. I suppose, – said Tamerlan, while my systems will develop there will persons who found schools of my martial arts with different names but some teachers will not tell about a real founder of it. Of course there are nobody knows what will be happened tomorrow but we can be sure that there is nobody never makes such creative thoughts of martial arts invention better than Timur did. Really this thought to mix ineffective or middle devices of different martial arts ultimate point of creative work because there is in the martial arts no other type of methods to combine.

  Source:

  http://www.journalhome.com/martialbloger/69538/the-most-outstanding-thought-of-21-st-century-in-the-martial-arts.html

• 19 Karateka Jared // Nov 5, 2009

  i have been delovoping my own style of karate for the last couple of years i am no way a master i have train in kenpo,jujustu,wrestling,kendo,mma, and army combatives i do not train at a dojo no more because of money and having a sick son so i devolped my own style and train at home i have won 2 state championships 3 years ago and havent competed sense i wont to start competing again but when you enter a tourment you fill out a form that ask for school,instroctor,and rank what would i put since i dont have any of those accapt rank wich when i was at a dojo i had a green jujustu ,orngana in kenpo, black in kendo but i got that when i was 12 so i dont rember any of it and wrestling and mma have no rank please write back if any on can help

• Martial Arts News 9.7.08 « Striking Thoughts // Sep 7, 2008

  [...] Development has a thoughtful post on martial arts inventors vs. Kung Fu crackpots. Rather than building on the experiential framework [...]

• James Barton’s Virtuous Science of Self-Defense // Sep 10, 2008

  [...] Search ← Read This Before You Invent a New Martial Arts Style [...]

Leave a Comment