Black Belt Envy

161 responses so far ↓

• 1 JamesWJohnson // Apr 27, 2007

  I know what you’re trying to say, and I generally agree with you, but your language has some implications with which I disagree.

  I would disagree that 10 years for a black belt is a sign that your school is scamming you. In certain styles (a notable example being Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu), it commonly takes 10 years or longer.

  You do, however, ask “what do you need your black belt to do for you,” at the end of the article, which addresses this issue. I remember in Tae Kwon Do that earning a black belt meant that one had a solid base in the style on which to build mastery, equivalent to a Bachelor’s degree in academia. In this case I would agree that 10 years is far too long. In short, it all depends on what a black belt is supposed to mean, and you weren’t clear about that.

• 2 JamesWJohnson // Apr 27, 2007

  Wait, one more thing. In the part about the sport watch, you say that one shouldn’t attend a school in which they have to put more work into achieving their black belt than they think they should.

  Belt rankings were invented by Judo founder Jigoro Kano so that he could easily discern who had the technical proficiency to learn or perform a certain technique. This is what belts are: an indication of proficiency used to segment students in class or competition.

  The point of martial arts is to become an effective fighter. If people are picking a school based not on how well they will learn to fight but instead on how long it will take to be awarded a belt of a given color, the martial arts are not for them.

• 3 Chris // Apr 27, 2007

  I present the “ten years is too long” and other time span arguments as all too common, not as my own beliefs.

  On the watch analogy, I fear you have misunderstood my point. Spending more money on a stopwatch does not make it more valuable; neither will spending extra time to earn a black belt–especially if you regard it as a symbol of proficiency.

• 4 Andy Fletcher // May 15, 2007

  James is spot on here. Black Belt means different things to different people. In the far East, it’s NOT an indication of mastery of a specific martial art, which is the common translation in the Western world. To the Japanese, Koreans & Chinese the black belt merely symbolizes the students completion of “basic” training and their readiness to “begin” proper training.

• 5 Chris // May 16, 2007

  Surely you do not mean to suggest there is a unified pan-Asian perspective on black belts?

• 6 Andy Fletcher // May 17, 2007

  Er, yes.

  On a side note, I’ve been training for almost 10 years and no Dan grade for me yet. I’m certainly not being scammed by my instructor though – you don’t pay anything to retake a failed grading at my club, and we only have the one tag between belts. Basically I’m not in a hurry, and not great at learning patterns!
  I’d support the idea that clubs/instructors insisting on two (or more!) tags between belts are certainly milking their students for money.

• 7 Chris // May 17, 2007

  Andy, Asia is a big place. There are dozens of styles of martial arts, and they don’t even agree on the best way to throw a punch, much less the significance of belts, patches and other pieces of flair.

• 8 Andy Fletcher // May 20, 2007

  Fair enough – we agree to disagree then! TBH I thought my comment supported the post, rather than arguing against. Preconceptions about what a black belt means are generally wrong.

  Regards

  Andy

• 9 Chris // May 21, 2007

  Please don’t take it personally. Hong Junsheng was one of the many masters who utterly rejected the modern phenomenon of colored belts and fancy silk training uniforms.

• 10 Asp // May 23, 2007

  I have just passed my black belt and in my style (goju ryu) there is a common standard.

• 11 Kurt // Jun 29, 2007

  As we all agree there are many styles of Martial Arts out there, some are simply sport orientated, others are a mix of self defence & sport…then there are a few that are pure self defence.

  The art I train in is pure self defence (Hapkido), we do not have patterns as we do not see it as street effective. We train to survive, not to compete so out syllabus is very streamlined, simple and effective.

  The average time to achieve black belt for a student who trains consistently 3 days per/week is 4-5 years. Alot take longer, but most do not train consistently.

  We say you get out what you put in.

• 12 glen middleton // Aug 12, 2007

  i am a 2nd dan black belt in karate ju-jitsu

• 13 sensei Khufu // Sep 8, 2007

  LOL Only in America! A shame that the western world has diluted the martial arts in so many ways since mass commercialization of the arts beginning in the 1980s. The dan rankings, or colored belts, work for some and for others the sash ranking works. And, yet, for others no belt ranking works. Whether a belt is worn or not, proficiency has to be measured in some way.

• 14 sensei Khufu // Sep 8, 2007

  Since I began training in the 1970s in New York, the thing I always found interesting is the abuse of Black Belt ranks in Tae Kwon Do……

• 15 Al Cole // Sep 28, 2007

  It should take however long your teacher (assuming they are qualified) decides for you.

  1 year? Fine, in Japan and Korea, promotions came that fast, and faster.

  Who are we to judge another’s student? Those who do are nothing more than arrogant, and there is no shortage of that quality among martial arts teachers.

  Al Cole
  Cleveland, Ohio

• 16 Al Cole // Sep 28, 2007

  One part was missing from my post.

  10 years is fine too. DAN has no set limit of time.

  Al Cole
  Cleveland, Ohio

• 17 Sieow Yeong Huah // Sep 30, 2007

  Chris, that story of Hong Junsheng has nothing to do with rejecting the idea of colored belts. It’s about not pretending to be something that you are not, and the courage to stand firm for something one believes in.

  Perhaps he did reject the idea of colored belts, but we cannot infer this from that particular story simply because he does not use colored belts. He might, for instance, advocate that any teacher should use whatever method is deemed best for the school, which might include use of colored belts.

• 18 Chris // Sep 30, 2007

  Let me quote two sections from the article:

  One of the maxims that Hong Junsheng lived by was never to bend to authority. This soft spoken old man was said to have a character of steel.

  In his entire life, he never wore a uniform. His “uniform” was always whatever he was wearing that day. With this normal poor man’s clothing, he defeated so many famous martial artists and survived 66 years of martial challenges!

  Now, Hong Junsheng does not decide who can and who cannot wear a black belt today. But it seems clear he did not wear one himself (it is part of a uniform), nor did he have much respect for the practice.

  P.S. I looked for pictures of his student Chen Zhonghua wearing a black belt, and found only this one:

  

• 19 Sieow Yeong Huah // Oct 1, 2007

  Hong Junsheng practiced and taught only Chen-style Taichi. Did it meant he “utterly rejected” the other styles of Taichi? Did it meant he “utterly rejected” all the other martial arts he did not teach?

  PS: do you know what certificate Hon Junsheng and Chen Zhonghua were holding in that photo?

• 20 Chris // Oct 2, 2007

  It is the lineage holder certificate.

• 21 Nico // Oct 3, 2007

  leí el artículo, pero no coincido con tu opiñon aserca de cuánto te debes tardar para ser cinturón negro.. en mi caso, yo practico Taekwondo desde hace 10 años, y según mi experiencia, creo que lo que dices de que un cinturon negro de 10 años es inferior a uno de 1 año.. eso no es cierto.. yo soy cinturon negro hace 4 años, y soy mucho más superior a los que solo llevan un año con ese grado.. cuanto más práctica mejor sos.. por lo tanto no importa que cinturon tengas.. lo que importa es cuanto tiempo le haz dedicado a las habilidades que sabes. Eso te hara un buen practicante de artes marciales.

• 22 Al Cole // Oct 3, 2007

  I have seen people who hold the black belt, who have trained for 20 years, who were terrible and idiots.

  I have also seen students who hold a black belt after 12 months of training, who have excellent skill and a great attitude.

  what matters is the combination of a good teacher and a good student.

• 23 Bolverk // Oct 26, 2007

  I have found an error in one reply by Jame W Johnson. Dr. Jigoro Kano did not invent ranks, he used a black belt to denote an advance student. That is the only thing he did, he did have various degrees of Black Belt though. However, beginner and intermediate students did not have a rank.

• 24 Al Cole // Oct 26, 2007

  Bolverk,

  Where can I find this information about Kano and ranks?

  Thank you

• 25 MartialLaw // Oct 29, 2007

  A black belt is totally insignificant.
  What matters is strength,knowledge,technique and endurance.
  A martial art teacher should be an experienced martial artist who knows how to defend himself and how to teach others that.
  A black belt can be bought with simple cash in a martial arts supply store.
  Martial arts skill and strength can only be achieved with years of devotion and hard training.

  Black belts means nothing,it just looks cool,nothing else.

• 26 Al Cole // Oct 29, 2007

  When one has terrible technique and bogus knowledge, but believes they have the real thing, then the Dan (real black belt) seems insignificant. If your knowledge and technique had any validity, then a true Dan would hold great meaning to you.

  Al Cole

• 27 okiba // Nov 3, 2007

  Well…i need a black belt to teach unarmed combat in the army

• 28 Ciaran // Dec 11, 2007

  I study sin moo hapkido. I have recently achieved my blackbelt after 4 years of training. I originally thought that I was not ready to be a blackbelt, as I believed that one should be able to defend themselves from attackers using any technique they had learned thus far in order to qualify for a blackbelt. But then the Grandmaster of the style came thousands of miles from Korea to teach us and said that he was promoting me to first dan, even though I was two grades down from it and I didn’t even know the full blackbelt syllabus. I know that this man is an incredible martial artist, so who was I to argue? But I still wonder whether or not I deserved it. Your disscusion has given me alot to think about…

• 29 Ryan W // Dec 16, 2007

  The whole point of a black belt from my perspective is primarily to demonstrate a proficiency in all skills learned from previous belts, and to show a basic mastery of the art being taught. Although there are many many schools out there whose goal is simply to make as much money as possible, there are still some schools that hold true to the old principles. To me, the time that is required to attain a rank of Shodan is all based on how much there is to learn, and more importantly, based on how quick or slow a student learns. There is no reason not to award a student with a black belt if they know all of the material, simply because it’s “too early”. If they know the material for the art, and have the skills that have been outlined, and have put in the necessary dedication and effort, why keep the student from what they deserve? However, for the same token, I feel as though it is inappropriate to award a student a black belt simply because of their time invested, even if they don’t possess the necessary skills to proceed. A problem that I see is that there are many schools that choose to award a black belt simply because the student has “payed” for it with their monthly tuition, rather than earned it with their blood, sweat, and effort. So, there is no way to classify what is necessary for a black belt between all arts and styles, because all styles require a different level of dedication. However, this does not make the black belt less legitimate, it simply means that the art is perhaps more simple, and less difficult to master.

• 30 Al Cole // Dec 16, 2007

  “I feel as though it is inappropriate to award a student a black belt simply because of their time invested, even if they don’t possess the necessary skills to proceed.”

  No two students are the same. Someone may have struggled hard and put in tons of work to get where another student got, physical wise, in a few months. Black Belt is not based on narrow interpretations such as technical skill, athleticism, etc.

  In the old days, like today, you had a wide variety of differences, many people earning black belt degrees in less than a year, and moving even fast at higher dan ranks. Research the Dan promotions of some famous Karateka and Judoka.

  The Dan’s were issued not so much about skill, but about courtesy, loyalty, respect, responsibility and mainly about Leadership”

• 31 Ryan W // Dec 18, 2007

  I apologize that my quoted sentence might have been taken out of context. When I said skills, I didn’t specifically mean natural athletic ability, or even prowess over all of the technical material presented. Skills include skills of leadership, honor, integrity, and most importantly skills of character and personal growth.

  My comment was meant to more or less illustrate that there are some people out there that feel as though they can simply “buy a black belt” by going to class, putting in half effort, but still paying their tuition so that i the end, they will get their rank. However, we wouldn’t have this kind of a mind-set if money-hungry systems didn’t exist. If they didn’t exist, there would be no place for the student who doesn’t care about respect and effort, and only cares about having a black belt to show their “superiority” to bully etc.

  The point that I try to make is that there are many black belts out there that have been earned through all the aforementioned qualities, rest assured. However, there are also some that have been produced by systems and schools that I would view more as a corporate company whose main goal is to land a large profit, rather than educate the student about what is really important.

  I understand completely that it is very narrow-minded to assume that a Dan ran king is given solely on athleticism and physical skills alone. In all reality, even though a knowledge of the kata, techniques, combinations, etc. is required, a demonstration of growth into a better person is what truly makes one deserving of black belt.

  So, considering the above, and back to my original point, it is ludicrous to think that there could be a common standard even within a system (aside from basic technical credentials). Because no student is exactly the same as the next, the personal requirements for growth will be different with every individual. So the bottom line is – considering the fact that there is no way to define a standard within a system of martial arts, it would be beyond impossible to define a standard for the US, or the world.

• 32 Mario // Jan 12, 2008

  I just got my black belt. I waited for 10 years and I finally began to feel that my school was milking me. So I challenged my master to an all-out throwdown. Before anyone knew what had happened, I was wearing the black belt and his pants had fallen off. Needless to say, he is not a black belt anymore, he hightailed it out of there in complete and well-deserved shame.

• 33 Kyle // Jan 15, 2008

  I’m… I’m a little confused. I studied kobudo for a year at my college and we didn’t do belt tests or any of those things so I don’t know much about them.

  Doesn’t a student progress through learning the skills of the art? I always thought that the focus was supposed to be on studying the art and becoming proficient than on what holds up one’s pants. I was led to this site after I looked up ‘black belt’ on Wikipedia after my siblings’ Kovar class last night. I was curious where all the focus on black belt excellence came from and why I wasn’t clued in on this… experience. My sensei taught forms and such, we didn’t ask when we could test. We had four green belts that we were sad to see leave us at the end of the year because their dedication to practice was a model for us all. I realize Kovar’s class was for kids last night but it seems from the comments above that even adult classes are like that. What gives? Am I just not living in reality here or is my perception of the martial arts totally wrong?

• 34 Al Cole // Jan 16, 2008

  Just because a person is your teacher, does not automatically qualify them as an expert at anything. Including providing you with the correct definition of what a DAN (Black Belt) means.

  I don’t like to follow up make-believe definitions of any sort, that is why it is good to find out how the martial arts leaders in Asia define their styles.

  Al

• 35 Ciaran // Jan 19, 2008

  “there are some people out there that feel as though they can simply “buy a black belt” by going to class, putting in half effort, but still paying their tuition so that i the end, they will get their rank.”
  I agree with you here, and unfortunately, even though my instructor is an extremely accomplished martial artist, he does tend to let people coast their way to blackbelt without any work. Yet he has also trained some of the best, including European and World champions. My problem is that I cannot see whether or not I am one of those who deserves their belt or did I simply recieve it because I had paid my tuition and spent the nessasary time there.

• 36 someone // Jan 31, 2008

  i like martial arts. i’ve been doing it for 8 years and have 2 different black belts. i am just wondering, how do u know what school is bad or not

• 37 Chris // Feb 1, 2008

  I haven’t gotten around to writing on that topic specifically. Here are some indirect responses to your question:
  How To Choose a Bad Martial Arts Instructor
  You’ll Always Have The Sensei You Deserve

• 38 Kungfuguy // Feb 7, 2008

  I don’t believe in ranks and belts a white belt could be able to deafeat a black belt in a fight and yet it takes him 10 years to get a black belt. Belts are pointless they are just part of a uniform they do measure a martial artisit power and abilty

• 39 Al Cole // Feb 7, 2008

  Belts were never about who could defeat who, or a measure of power. The belt is about the student teacher relationship. If you want to think of martial arts in those terms, there are street fighters who could pound you into the ground, and they have zero martial arts training, that would make your Kung Fu worthless in your terms.

• 40 Kungfuguy // Feb 7, 2008

  I was just saying that belts are inaccurate at measuring skill and i could deafeat a street fighter since that is what i train to do thats what martial arts self defense and your saying is you get a good realtionship you get a black belt that means some one with no experience could get a black belt if they were best friends with there teacher its about skill and power the better you get the higher belt you get.

• 41 Kungfuguy // Feb 7, 2008

  crap i got to many typos i my messages curse my key board

• 42 Al Cole // Feb 7, 2008

  Kind of. You, nor I can beat every street fighter. That does not make us any less a black belt. Black Belt means that we have in some way, contributed to the benefit or our practice. Maybe we are the parent who gets a College Gym for free to hold the State Championship, or we are the Mayor of the City that helps bring in some special team or person to train with that cities martial arts members. Maybe we are the dedicated, un-co-ordinated student who works very hard every day and struggles, and never complains, and follows our teachers, never to achieve what the gifted Jock student can achieve, but is satisfied with the challenge. These are the people who deserve the Black Belt (DAN). However, there are those who are judge mental, who are not aware of the struggle, or the sacrifice, or the extension of kindness and free giving that come along with the earning of RESPECT FROM THE MASTER. When the Master-Instructor respects you, they will award you with a DAN. That DAN is a membership into a special fraternal/Sorel society.

  Do not belittle the Dan by speaking in terms of fighting, etc. The Dan is much greater than that.

  Al Cole

• 43 Kungfuguy // Feb 7, 2008

  al cole i have no idea what you mean all i get from is that once you are loyal to your sensei and dojo you get a black belt i thought you got a black belt when you showed that the skill and ability to earn one but you have your opnion and i have mine

• 44 Al Cole // Feb 7, 2008

  Search Al Cole Taekwondo, or Master Al Cole to get an idea of me. I am not a novice. I am no know it all either. I am who I am. I have been to Asia and I know what a Black Belt means there, I do not care what a black belt means to people in America. my brother Americans are ignorant when it comes to culture. That has been our American History, and why should Taekwondo not suffer the same ignorance.

  Al Cole

• 45 Kungfuguy // Feb 7, 2008

  I’m Australian but i like to call it amercia number 2 since we copy amercia so much any way that is what you have been taught and think i know what i know and personally i think belts are nothing but uniform people should have to wear a belt to show what they have done.

• 46 Kyle // Mar 27, 2008

  Bleh, none of it matters really. Whoever is still alive at the end, they are the master of that moment.

• 47 Kungfuguy // Mar 27, 2008

  kyle i like the way u think

• 48 Hitokiri // Mar 28, 2008

  I’ve practiced for 14 years in many styles, (maily due to moveing ). My main focus has been in Wing Chun and Drunken Boxing. I have had my ass handedto me by noobs and defieted “champions”.
  I have been asked to teach at a collage in WA and i have been considering how to organize my rank structure. But i do not agree with belts per-se. I hold three black belts according to the association i am apart of and i don’t fee two of the are deserved. I think ones dedication, effort, understanding or martial arts as a whole and skill all are factors. If i were to come and spar at one of your schools my attire is color cordanated. I will put on the sash that fits the clothes, i will take off any thing that distracts from my porpus.
  I like many standards I’ve seen (Go-Ju, ShotoKan, BJJ) but i will have my students carry themselves as martial artists, not egos. If a rank is required for an event they wish to atend i will award a “piece of paper” that only reflect what they have satified with my association.
  I feel this will raise up more Martial Artist and less arobic profitiant belt hunters.

• 49 Martin Brass // Mar 28, 2008

  I am a 14 year old white belt judo player. I weigh 82 kilos. I am 5 feet and 8 inches tall. I beat a black belt 18 years old 6 feet tall and weighing 63 kilos. What good is this guy’s black belt? I trashed him in my first fight.

• 50 Ciaran // Apr 22, 2008

  No offence, but Judo is pretty simple, and if tou weighed that much more than him and your center of gravity was that much lower than his, you were bound to win.

• 51 gdog066 // Apr 23, 2008

  Well, the definition of ‘Shodan’ literally means “First step”, not “expert” as some people refer to it outside the martial arts.

  For you to understand what that really means on a down to earth level, you basicly have learned all of the basics of the martial art that you are studying.

  If you look at some of the more ‘advanced’ techniques that the color ranking systems use the newer moves are just your basics with a slight ‘twist’ to it.

  Although the color belt system is flawed, much like a lot of the other systems, I only see it as a way to seperate techniques into sections. I have a fellow student in my class that is going to “academy” and through some weird twist went from beign “Senpai” to “Sensei” in only a few weeks.

  His rank went from blue/green to somewhere in between black belt and brown belt. Not quite good enough to be a Shodan but better than the rest of the class.

  Any one else see a problem with this method? Given I would like to become an instructor myself, I would not do so until I reached at least a green belt; where I would hopefully have most of my flaws worked out, or greatly improved.

  So in short there is going to be flaws in every martial arts ranking system, regardless of fighting style or country of origin. You just have to find the one that works out with you; not ridiculously hard, not insanely easy, but challenging enough to make you want to push yourself harder to improve yourself and your technique.

  It really comes down to the person’s dedication to the martial arts and the attitude that goes along with learning it.

• 52 Kungfuguy // Apr 25, 2008

  there is a story where if you get a white belt after years of traning it will get dirty with blood and sweat and stuff it will turn a mouldy green then a grey colour then brown then black and it will be infested with germs unless u spray it with germ killer i think this is the best way to get a black belt if u want one

• 53 Martin Brass // May 6, 2008

  I fought the same skinny black belt again and this time I got a submission out of him ( see entry 51 )

• 54 Martin Brass // May 7, 2008

  I beat that skinny black belt again – and this time I got a submission from him. Yeaaaahhh!!!!

• 55 GojuGirl // Jun 2, 2008

  On a planet where an 8 year old “black belt” can compete at the “World Karate Championships” with a “kata” that he made up himself and set to “the Eye of the Tiger”, I certainly do not compare my rank to his. I’m fairly sure that I could demolish that kid in the kumite ring, but what purpose would it serve to beat up a kid half my size?

  I am a healthier and stronger person from the years of training that I did before being tested for shodan, but really – the belt is just a piece of cloth. The point of martial arts training (IMHO) has little to do with belts or gis or even what kata you do (or don’t do). the point is that you are following a disciplined path of self improvement.

  If you expect your black belt to do something for you (other than represent a milestone in your training), you will be sorely disappointed.

• 56 Martin Brass // Jun 8, 2008

  Yes GojuGirl. I’m still a white belt and I’ve thrashed quite a few coloured belts – including a black belt. He played brilliant judo. He is very agile and athletic, but being only 63 kilos against my 83, he is the one who went on to his back. He could not match my strength.

• 57 Norton // Jun 17, 2008

  Gentlemen and ladies, forgive my tardiness to this conversation however, regarding the initial statement at the start of this blog, I would have to disagree with the opening comment that black belts have no discernable meaning.

  Every school is unique and similar. Various techniques, defense, kicking and striking movements are defined and practiced. These are arts that have been in constant evolution and as such, have expanded. To put a “standard” to martial arts is in itself a way of limiting it’s potential. To put a “standard” on each and every student, hinders growth. A “standard” can be the goal however some are not meant to achieve this, yet benefit from the path.

  To me, as a student and an instructor, the black belt is a definition of an individual’s accomplishments within a structured environment. Do instructors have or use subjective criteria for promotion, absolutely. As individuals, we are alike and dislike. If a student progresses from determination, practice and effort, it is within the instructor’s right and ability to compliment that student with a belt. As individuals we have a tendency to compare ourselves with others instead of within. Having made this statement, do instructors promote for money and time, absolutely. It is what it is. Do I necessarily agree with it, no, but then again, it is what it is. In short, the black belt should be a personal goal, as would an MBA, achieved from an accredited school. The belt alone is empty without meaning.

• 58 Jaybird // Jul 4, 2008

  Who cares about belts? I’ve studied many forms (Aikido, Wrestling, Tae Kwon Do, Karate), I’ve held many belts, passed many tests, and had many medals and awards bestowed upon me. The only thing that’s been important to me though has been the skills I’ve learned. Belts, medals, ranks, (even time spent learning), they mean nothing compared to ABILITY…

• 59 Koryo // Jul 4, 2008

  That may as well be the case for you however some people need assurances and reinforcement, hence the belt, tape, stripes and/or markings to show advancement. Ability is a measurement of skill and commitment. You may not appreciate the belt as a means for completion of a program, some do. Some prefer physical achievements as a means of denoting ability, others must be nurtured (I will leave it at that). If we as martial artists and teachers were to look for only the students that chose the hard way of learning, we (the industry) would have very few students. For some, the black belt is comparable to a college degree. What you do with the degree is left to the individual. As far as ability, it changes and matures with age. Some may never achieve your standards, you are blessed with skill.

• 60 IamNobody // Aug 26, 2008

  One does not “grade” his quality by his belt for if you all remember one thing…You took classes to defend yourself from attack…You also remember we all started someplace and either wanted it or did not…Either you know how or you do not…There is no competition unless your in a ring and even then it can be the luck of a simple mistake…No matter what your belt-rank…Train hard/learn well/grow eagerly but be consistent in everything you do…KEY WORD “CONSISTENCY”…
  Be Positive…Be Physically healthy (Mind & Body)…Self Discipline…Know when to use your skills…

• 61 Koryo // Aug 27, 2008

  Don’t assume everyone takes martial arts to defend themselves. Very few schools teach effective street techniques. I am assuming you have never competed for anything by your comment. Most of us have been competing with many aspects of life from grades in school to positions at work. Not withstanding, how about internal competition? Are you saying you have never challenged yourself to anything? You are correct in being consistent. I am questioning who the “you” is directed toward? Each student has personal achievements and goals related to their training.

• 62 GojuGirl // Aug 27, 2008

  Martial Arts is an artistic expression where self-defence is the medium. It is not impossible to be peaceful and a warrior.

  It is the discipline of practise that develops character. It is strength of character that will keep you alive on the street.

• 63 IamNobody // Aug 28, 2008

  Forgive me Koryo for you are right I should not point fingers as there are usually 3 pointing back…However if you took classes simply to go out and compete more power to you…My competition is my self improvement which I apply each day…My goals are never reached as I continue to strive to be a better person each day…I was simply commenting on those that hold black belts…I have seen many ranks and they seem to be very impressive as they apply themselves through each rank…
  So otherwise I meant no harm to your self pride and your achievements…Please continue on your path as each student finds there own meaning of holding a belt rank…I am far to old now days to compete but I do still train…I love it and will never give it up…
  Oh by the way…I have succeeded in many areas of my life which you know nothing of…But thank you for you opinion…I’ll be sure to file it under “F” for flush down toilet!

• 64 Koryo // Aug 28, 2008

  Thank you for the clarification, we are on the same path. It is not about right, I am simply trying to clarify your comment audience and provoke thought. If my words were considered an insult, I appologize. Your commentary was quite specific about the only competition being in a ring, hence my retort! I never questioned your success nor do I state mine. My point of view is a culmination of various students’ reasons for taking up an art.

  I for one did not start training for self defense or competition and I to am getting experienced in age.

  The original topic commented on the uselessness of a black belt and all I am saying is that a black belt’s meaning is unique to each and every martial artist, regardless of skill and experience. Because of this, their dedication and consistency reflects their belief. Accordingly, their level of commitment is reflected in their abilities, knowledge and skill. GojuGirl is correct in her assessment of self-defense.

• 65 mike // Sep 3, 2008

  i need my black belt and teaching accreditation so i can offer students an accelerated black belt program in mixed martial arts where they can earn it in about 8 months why make people wait for years to earn a black belt when a quality fighter can be easily trained with the right program?

• 66 GojuGirl // Sep 3, 2008

  Mike – Why don’t you just go buy a black belt and tell everyone you are a master? You can buy one of the “teacher’s certificates” on-line and it only takes a couple of weeks to come in through the mail.

  The black belt itself doesn’t matter – as many have stated, it represents many different things to different people. However … if the common perception is that a black belt represents the attainment of a high rank of skill in martial arts, than an “accelerated black belt program in mixed martial arts [that takes] about 8 months” is borderline fraud. People will think that they are really “experts in martial arts” when really, they are just beginners. Good fighters, sure. But not martial artists.

  Technique, skills and conditioning can be developed to a fighting level in 8 months. No dispute. But martial arts isn’t about fighting – it’s about personal development.

  If you don’t plan to “follow a disciplined path of self improvement,” why even bother with a black belt at all?

• 67 Koryo // Sep 5, 2008

  Mike – I am not directing you toward a course of action, however if you are truly going through an accreditation process, then your program should be longer in length. I agree with GojuGirl, the concept behind martial arts training is personnal development and meant to be a life-long journey. I also think an 8 month program will generate a false sense of accomplishment and understanding.

  The development of mixed martial arts has been a long time in coming and is a welcome sight. In the past, instructors refused to allow students to train in styles “outside” of what they taught in class. Students could get dismissed if they openly showed an interest in other arts. The benefit of MMA is a well-rounded understanding of multiple arts, however I truly believe it should take just as long if not longer to develop these skills.

  As an instructor, you need to ask yourself if you are really helping or hindering your students? It is your decision, especially if you are developing curriculum for student advancement. Think back to your Black Belt training, do you feel it was sufficient or adequate?

• 68 GojuGirl // Sep 17, 2008

  I recently saw first hand the type of damage that “no-standard” ranking systems can do. A family who was new to town came into our dojo to enquire about karate classes. Their teenaged son had been training in karate for 3 years and had been ranked to brown belt by his previous sensei. (That’s a little bit rushed by our standards, but still reasonable) As we do with all students who have been ranked in a different style, we asked him to participate in our intermediate level class without his belt, so that we could assess which level is most appropriate for his training. Usually, we give the student a green belt to recognize their previous training, and they can grade up when they are ready. After all – a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. At brown belt level, you would expect that those two concepts would be understood.

  Unfortunately, it was blatantly obvious that this student had been defrauded by his previous sensei.

  This “brown belt” did not understand how to make a proper fist – had never punched a target or kicked a shield and did not seem to understand “fighting stance” or “blocking” concepts. His conditioning was terrible. He should have been in a beginner’s class with a white belt on – but instead – he has been told that he’s almost a black belt. Can you imagine how devastating this must be? Any sense of accomplishment that this kid felt about his previous efforts just went down the drain.

  I would hate to think that this kid believes that he can defend himself….

• 69 Sensei Cruz // Sep 19, 2008

  Goju Girl, I know how you feel. I have seen it a lot of times. And its not fair to the students.

  And i disagree in this but I have seen a Sensei give a belt to his student knowing in his mind he didnt deserve it. But they give in to the kids parents and of course money. I understand some sensei’s that have these kind of people training. But if we know that a student doesnt deserve something we should not give it to him, its just gonna hurt him, sooner or later.

  And about what Mike said. For me it would have been a shame to get my black belt in 8 months. Yeah maybe I could have learned a couple of things, lost a couple of pounds, but where is the experience. How can someone say “Im a black belt” in 8 months O_o…. Even if the person is a good fighter he will still lack technique and most of all respect for himself and others.
  As GojuGirl said “It is strength of character that will keep you alive on the street.” You cannot gain that kind of stuff in 8 months. I doubt even in a couple of years.

  have a nice day

• 70 Duncan // Sep 26, 2008

  I wonder about your statement that 10 years means you are being scammed for tuition. In Judo the typical time to black belt is seven to ten years. However, clubs run not for profit. The coaches are not paid. Their interest is with the value of the sport.

• 71 Duncan // Sep 26, 2008

  “Martin Brass // Mar 28, 2008

  I am a 14 year old white belt judo player. I weigh 82 kilos. I am 5 feet and 8 inches tall. I beat a black belt 18 years old 6 feet tall and weighing 63 kilos. What good is this guy’s black belt? I trashed him in my first fight.”

  Was this in randori? If so I would suggest that the black belt was going very easy for the benefit of teaching and to reduce risk of injury and frustration. Enter an open class at a competition and you will see a different kind of Judo.

• 72 Duncan // Sep 28, 2008

  Judo has an international body and each country has a national grading board that oversees blackbelt standards. Grading for sho-dan is done by building a resume, gaining a specified number of points through participation and contribution, and appearing before a grading board that is recognised by the national governing body.

• 73 Bob Kreutter // Sep 30, 2008

  The original blog laid out a positive question and deserved the good response it received. One of the perspectives worth mentioning is the kind of student a dojang is wanting or willing to take and train.
  If the orientation is family, or all demographic segments of the population (given reasonable health), and the emphasis is on the discipline and moral-strengthening attributes of the martial arts, then an accelerated belt system is helpful in terms of reward and motivation.
  Any reasonable person who receives a black belt under such an orientation has to have the common sense to realize that skillwise they are no Jackie Chan or Jet Li. One of the key features of any Black Belt under any system should be humility and greater self-awareness.

• 74 martin brass // Oct 8, 2008

  Duncan // Sep 26, 2008

  “Martin Brass // Mar 28, 2008

  I am a 14 year old white belt judo player. I weigh 82 kilos. I am 5 feet and 8 inches tall. I beat a black belt 18 years old 6 feet tall and weighing 63 kilos. What good is this guy’s black belt? I trashed him in my first fight.”

  Was this in randori? If so I would suggest that the black belt was going very easy for the benefit of teaching and to reduce risk of injury and frustration. Enter an open class at a competition and you will see a different kind of Judo.
  ———————————————————————–
  It was in a competition. My opponent fought well and hard. I put the skinny malink right over my shoulder. He was very upset at being thrashed by a younger beginner.

• 75 Daniel Martinez // Oct 8, 2008

  are black belts athletes?

• 76 GojuGirl // Oct 8, 2008

  quote: are black belts athletes?

  Depends on what you mean by athlete. I believe that a principle of diligent training is striving to become stronger in body, mind and spirit. Does it mean that I am an athlete? I do athletic things 6 days per week. I’m fit, but I don’t consider myself to be an athlete.

  I think you might find that the search for the meaning of “athlete” is almost as elusive as defining the meaning of “black belt”.

  To be successful at a sport, like taekwondo or judo, I think that the player must be an athlete. To be successful in non competitive arts, you just need to keep training. It’s the path that is important, not the prize.

  I understand the value of competition-focused arts – I am a competitive student. The competition helps me to focus on a training target. But like open tournaments, the black belt is only as meaningful as the training that came before. By that argument, Martin Brass’ white belt is as meaningful (or meaningless) as the black belt of his opponent.

  Its an interesting perspective.

• 77 Al Cole // Oct 9, 2008

  Bullsheet.

  don’t lie. It looks bad, even on here.

  Not my best regards,

  Al Cole

• 78 Judoka // Oct 9, 2008

  White belts and black belts competing in the same class??? I have never seen this. This makes me question the truth of this story.

• 79 Mindless 1 // Oct 9, 2008

  I am the blackest of the black white ninjas. Belts hold up your pants and quite frankly I prefer suspenders. I want a bleck set of suspenders.

• 80 Romi // Oct 12, 2008

  I believe its the martial artist rather than the art they study. Everyone has their own skill level. Becoming a black belt is more than just being the “tuff” guy. Respect and honor come in a great deal, if you have none of those no matter what strength or conditioning you have you will never go any further than you are if you already believe your the best. I run into too many MMA fighters that believe just that. I am friends with a lot of them and to be honest I get the impression they think martial artist are jokes. The funny thing is, they really only fight people with their same skill level. So when they win a fight they think nothing can stop them. Its going to be interesting when they start fighting fighters that have honor and martial arts backgrounds, and I can’t wait until the day they do.

• 81 Cobra-Kai // Oct 22, 2008

  the most aggresive fighter will win and no belt will ever change that

• 82 Judoka // Oct 23, 2008

  I can only speak for Judo. But don’t forget that aggression is reflected in the belt. Points towards promotion are earned through competition. Grading also has a competative requirement.

  Now… older recreational folks are excused from competitive requirements because they break easy. They have to take a longer route to black belt through workshops, coaching, etc…

• 83 Martin Brass // Nov 1, 2008

  the most aggresive fighter will win and no belt will ever change that

  Yes. The skinny black belt I beat fought gracefully but not aggressively. Better for him to do ballet dancing!!

• 84 Tzone // Nov 9, 2008

  I am a 1st kyu which means in my ranking structure that my next test is for Shodan. I have been in Karate for 8 years. I took my Shodan test once and failed it because I was nervous. I attend Tournaments every year and compete with black belts in Kata and Kumite the last two tournaments I have taken first in Black Belt Kumite and 2nd in the last tournament in black belt kata. I’m not bragging but what I’m trying to say is that If I put on a Black Belt it won’t make me any better of a Karateka. The way I see it is the color of your belt doesn’t matter one bit. I understand the reason it is put into play but to understand the level of someones skills by looking at their belt you must first understand the style they train in. Their is no universal checklist to tell whether or not you are a black belt it matters what style you study.

• 85 Rini Judoka // Nov 12, 2008

  Hi,

  it also depends on the age, judoka’s have to be 16 in order to get there blackbelt, it took me 11 years to get my blackbelt because I started at the age of 5

  and martin, maybe you completely ” trashed” the guy because of your weight??

  kind regards

  Rini

• 86 Thunderbird // Nov 29, 2008

  A VAST majority of martial artists will never be able to fight, regardless of what rank they hold in a system. Fighters are born. The martial arts just capitalizes and hones the skill but you either have it or you dont.

• 87 Martin Brass // Dec 2, 2008

  Of course it was my weight. Everyone said he played the best judo. His techniques and skills are fantastic – but my weight won over these.

• 88 Thunderbird // Dec 3, 2008

  The most important thing done in attaining a black belt is paying your testing fees

• 89 Yanni Sholla // Dec 14, 2008

  There is no “real” time to get a black belt, it all depends on how long youve studied and how well you are prepared, and remember this, 1, 5, 10, 20, 100 years!!, it doesnt matter unless you have the skills and the knowledge to call yourslef black belt!

• 90 Chef // Jan 9, 2009

  Forgive me if I am repeating on this subject. In reference to post #56 and the handful prior by the same individual, the thing that you might learn between your current white belt, and the rank that you so bragingly schooled is humility.

  “Through defeat we gain wisdom. Through victory we gain humility”

  Some never learn it, but every black belt should know it well…

• 91 Martin Brass // Jan 12, 2009

  The coloured belts I beat showed great humility towards me.

• 92 Tim // Jan 29, 2009

  Yeaaaa…. that was a WHOLE lot of comments.

  Anyways, I think it’s kind of unfair about all the American bashing. It’s the foreigners who think they know us better than us. But anyways, back on topic…

  I worked my butt off for 7 years for my b/b and still feel it’s a status symbol of sorts. Sure people can buy them, but what do they have, a fake belt, simple. Even doing the bare minimum won’t get them anywhere. To me my blackbelt stands for how hard I worked, not how long I worked.

  I like the analogy between getting your black belt like finishing boot camp more than getting a b/a in college. The black belt is just the start to the real training, where both intellect, and skill is challenged. One has to study, and take in all has to offer to move forward, not slack. It takes knowledge to move forward… and I think that is one thing not mentioned enough.

  A dan should be the result of self motivated study, knowledge, dedication, determination, patience, and SKILL. Its the SELF MOTIVATION that is what will earn you the next step. Simple.

  You guys all make it so complicated.

  !!!!All asian martial arts agree with self motivated study, knowledge, dedication, determination, patience, and SKILL as their core guidelines, period!!!!

• 93 Koryo // Jan 30, 2009

  Tim, you are correct in your assessment that the belt reflects how hard you worked. I am sure you can look back over those 7 years and identify the challenges and achievements, as well as your progression and skill level. When I used the analogy of a college degree, I was referring to exactly what you mention in your comment. Yes, one can obtain a degree/black belt, however one’s skill and application of knowledge reflects the amount of dedication spent on obtaining that degree/dan. This is the tip of the iceberg as they say and the start of a long and hopefully fruitful road.
  Once you have attained that level, what are you going to do with it? Can you successfully apply what you have learned, or better yet, what you should have learned? Do you act and interact with humility, respect, honesty and dedicate yourself to continued study? There are many facets of the arts and to keep it simple, do you challenge yourself (motivation) to commit to continued education, training and skill enhancement? Overall, each person has a goal and the training may end at the black belt. You comment on the real training beginning after the black belt is spot on. Not everyone is committed to go further.
  Additionally, there are many fighters, martial artists and street fighters that have trained continually and some hardcore. Do they have black belts? Maybe, probably not! The belt is not as important to them as the skill and knowledge gained from continually challenging and testing themselves, as well as seeking out the hardest challenge and instructor. Can we say they are not martial artists, competitors or athletes? I think that is a stretch of the imagination. If a white belt beat a black belt, I think there may be more to it and the situation needs to be looked at from all angles.

• 94 Victoria // Feb 25, 2009

  Im going to have my black belt test soon and I’m scared
  I’ve been doing Karate for four years

• 95 Tim // Feb 25, 2009

  You have only been in for 4 years and are already testing for your b/b?

  That just doesn’t sound right.

  There is more to martial arts than just learning the basics. I had to do bookwork, learn the history, and all about why stuff is the way it is. No point in having a b/b unless you are truly ready for it both physically, and mentally, or you will just be another random person with a no meaning b/b.

• 96 Tim // Feb 25, 2009

  but then again victoria, you can be one of the very few actually really ready for the test that early. I know my school wouldn’t have tested that early unless ya donate your life for those 4 years and be mentored by the instructor both in, and out of class.

  Anyways, good luck. As long as you are working to learn more, rather than just working for the next step you are going to move ahead. After all, its the dan ranks that will really mean something.

• 97 Cobra-Kai // Feb 25, 2009

  Book work for a black belt now that does’nt sound right. It’s martial arts not a history class. Dans are pointless in my opnion oh look at me I am a 63 degree black belt. Belts are part of a uniform I think it’s about time most martial arts schools give up on black belts .They have no meaning at all they just look cool.

• 98 Tim // Feb 26, 2009

  There is more to martial arts than kicking and punching. Learning the history, ideology, and over all though processes that true martial artists take years to learn like mentioned is what it’s all about. By book work, I meant independent studies. The same as school. After all, martial arts is a form of schooling, and the guys on top, have done plenty of it.

  I think you are not understanding what a dan is, and more or less talking about the normal belt range. A dan has a different meaning. One that just doing the steps won’t let you progress. A Dan is awarded to someone really pushing it both mentally, physically, and stepping up the plate to help teach other lower belts. Nothing about look. A dan just signifies ones very long term dedication, progress and work, unlike belts, which just show what level you are in the basics.

  take it for what you want, but like I said before, to me, a black belt stands for how hard I worked at the basics, and a dan stands for how much of your life your willing to pour into the art. Simple.

• 99 Cobra-Kai // Feb 26, 2009

  When your book work helps you in a street fight then I might go out and learn the history of martial arts. You do not need a belt to tell you how hard you have worked your blood sweat and tears should tell you not some piece of material.

• 100 Tim // Feb 26, 2009

  Just the point that you made about a street fight shows you don’t understand what this is all about.

  Most if not all martial arts teaches that violence is not the key, and should only be a last resort. But yet, since you don’t believe in knowing why your learning something, it shouldn’t matter none the less. Enjoy watching mma fights…

• 101 Cobra-Kai // Feb 26, 2009

  I don’t watch MMA and that whole violence is not the answer thing is bull try talking to someone hell bent on smashing your face in. The whole pacifist approach to martial arts is rubbish.

• 102 Cobra-Kai // Feb 26, 2009

  I learn martial arts so I don’t die on the street not to learn some make love not war crap and get a fancy uniform.

• 103 Tzone // Feb 26, 2009

  Cobra-kai and Tim here’s what I say on the subject take it for what you wish. I study Karate-do and in studying karate-do I am learning the Art, Sport, and Self defense. The style that I learn encorperates more of the self Defense aspect of the techniques. However learning the basic history of the art of Karate-do and the history of our system is still important. If the modern ranking system was good enough for Jigaro Kano, founder of Judo then obviously he saw a reason for it. Now today there are some people who don’t meet what standards you may think are required but the Belt is still a part of tradition. Plus you saying that belts have no meaning is not a valad point considering there are many legit styles of martial arts were the Black Belt holds a great deal of meaning. to attain a black belt in my style is to become a student were the real path of learning begins. It also says that you hold a good knowledge of the basics and are ready to begin your path to perfect them and yourself as a human being. Also You must remember the reason that Martial Arts originated. For self Defense at a time were it was between life and death. Studing the writtings of the founders of Karate and other martial arts styles would greatly help in giving you a greater understanding of what techniques are the most effective in which situations. The more you train the more effective your self defense will be but also the more you study your art the better understanding you have of the techniques and the better you will be at applying them in a real life situation. I do agree with you though that a belt is just there to complete the uniform and it matters what you know and not what rank you hold but there is a purpose for the belt.

• 104 Cobra-Kai // Feb 26, 2009

  I see I still believe that a belt is nothing I do not need one to tell me how hard I have worked and I do not need to study the history of martial arts since it will not make me a better fighter.

• 105 joshuahyoung // Feb 27, 2009

  I always chuckle when I see belts or uniforms.
  Not for me.

• 106 GojuGirl // Feb 27, 2009

  “I do not need to study the history of martial arts since it will not make me a better fighter.”

  Developing the mind is every bit as important as conditioning the body. I have found that using my brain has been very helpful in making me a better fighter. I can protect myself against bigger, stronger opponents because I have an understanding of strategy.

  Musashi had some pretty good insight into strategy and self-defence in his Book of Five Rings. Try it, you might just learn something.

• 107 joshuahyoung // Feb 27, 2009

  I love his book of the 5 elements (I find that a truer translation than “rings”)

  have you read his other written works?

• 108 GojuGirl // Feb 27, 2009

  I’ve also heard “Five Spheres” used as an alternate translation. I love this conceptually but I really have no linguistic basis for my preference.

  I’ve read the Dokkodo (which is found on this site, I think). I’ve heard of “The 35 Articles of Swordsmanship” but can’t find a clear copy of it.

  Are you familiar with any other works by Musashi?

• 109 Cobra-Kai // Feb 27, 2009

  Yes the mind is the best weapon. But telling my attacker about some guy who lived 1000 years ago will not defeat him. Book work is pointless in a fight I would rather practice my choke holds then read some dusty old history book. The only way a book is good in a fight is if you hit people with it.

• 110 Tim // Feb 27, 2009

  Dude cobra, you keep going back to talking about being in a street fight. I’ve only been in 2 fights in my life time. If you are getting into a lot of fights, or need to worry about fighting, your issue is your missing what all of us are saying to you.

  I have yet to lose a fight. Simple. Book work or not, I think it has bettered me as an over all person… which is what martial arts is about, not street fighting. I think you need to stop thinking about stuff from a street fight point of view, and think about it from a bettering yourself point a view. You would probably never ever get awarded a dan rank because you fail to understand that… and that’s something martial arts is based on.

  Last off, I will say it again, fightning should be a LAST resort in ANY case. Period. You would learn the basics to defend yourself working for a black belt, but you will learn why stuff is being taught working for your dan ranks.

  May I ask, what belt are you (if any). Just curious because I’ve had a similar discussion with a friend who dropped out of the class at green belt because he thought it was a waste of time. Seems its more of the new commers who don’t understand why things are the way they are. Time would help teach you otherwise.

• 111 GojuGirl // Feb 27, 2009

  You miss the point, Cobra-Kai. I agree that practising technique is essential, but including reading as part of your training regimen helps to prepare the mind and spirit for battle.

  It sounds as if you are in a fight club, not a dojo.

• 112 Cobra-Kai // Feb 27, 2009

  I never went for belts I saw how pointless they were so whenever I was offered to go for one I declined. I do not want a belt or a dan and I could’nt care about bettering myself as a person. I train for the street because where I live I would die if I did’nt fight. As for preparing my mind for battle “everyone has a plan untill they have been hit”.

• 113 joshuahyoung // Feb 27, 2009

  Those are pretty much the only musashi I have read or heard of. ..

  Some people can’t learn from books, others can. It has more to do with how you apply it than if it is in a book, but there are things you can’t learn from a book. A book won’t replace practice or condition the body, however it can be a good tool for those who know how to use it,

• 114 Tim // Feb 28, 2009

  Well cobra, I guess your just another kid who didn’t want to put the time in, nor understand why stuff is being taught. Just the attitude that you type with alone tells me you weren’t interested in anything to begin with other than tools to fight. I grew up right next to a major Norte’ hub and some how I only have been in 2 fights. It’s really not that hard to stay non violent. Don’t provoke, don’t think your a badass in a neighborhood people carry guns, and just get educated and move on… like I did. Simple. If it’s too unsafe for you to be a normal human and now always have a fight state of mind y0u should re think your view on things. Maybe a disciplined martial arts regime would really help ya.

• 115 Cobra-Kai // Feb 28, 2009

  I don’t provoke I try to avoid and it never works. People are stupid. Yeah your right when I started martial arts I only cared about fighting and that has’nt changed people learn martial arts so they can fight to defend themselves. I learnt most schools do not understand this and focus on other things that no one really cares about untill they have being brainwashed into thinking it matters. And if doing martial arts for 4 years and traning 2 hours a day 5 days a week is’nt “putting the time in” then maybe I should follow your example how often do you train?

• 116 Tim // Feb 28, 2009

  “And if doing martial arts for 4 years and traning 2 hours a day 5 days a week is’nt “putting the time in” then maybe I should follow your example how often do you train?”

  Sounds like a national guard regime to me.

  I trained in a studio for 7 years until I got my black. From then its been independent study.

  My regime was 4-6 hours a day 6 days a week. I was an ace in Forms, but didn’t like sparring. Would rather train with weapons than waste time fighting like little kids over candy.

  I personally didn’t start martial arts to learn to defend myself because I already could. I started martial arts to better myself, and train for what real life would bring my way. In the end I have excellent patience, insane determination, good reflexes, and a high pain tolerance. All things of which translate into my daily life.

• 117 Cobra-Kai // Feb 28, 2009

  Then maybe I should train that often and 7 years for a black belt seems a bit much.

• 118 Tim // Feb 28, 2009

  It was what I felt was needed, not my instructor.

  I knew when I was ready. Simple. I went into it with dan ranks in mind. No point in getting a black belt early as it will just make you work harder for a dan… well unless you are really gifted.

  Haven’t you read any of the earlier comments about how long it should take. 7 years is very well acceptable. Its when you get up in the 8-10+ years for you that they are either milking ya for money or the person just doesn’t “have it”.

• 119 Cobra-Kai // Feb 28, 2009

  Read all these comments. No thanks

• 120 Koryo // Mar 2, 2009

  Most of us have read all of the chat concerning this blog and have contributed to its discussion thread. Cobra, you seem to be someone with a much different viewpopint than many of us. That doesn’t mean you are right or wrong, it is simply what you have taken from and received from the arts and training.
  What others are trying to mention to you is that there are others aspects of the arts aside from fighting. Whether or not you believe this or want to acknowledge what is being stated is up to you. The point is, maybe delving into other relative aspects of the arts may enhance your skill, knowledge and/or perspective. Without trying it, you have everything to lose; trying it, only wastes some time if you get nothing from the task. Or you can say that you have learned a way not to train.
  We all seem to have a passion for some part of the arts, or focus on a particular area of expertise, otherwise we wouldn’t spend the time blogging here.

• 121 joshuahyoung // Mar 2, 2009

  Well said.
  Old methods of training concern mind, body and spirit. The idea goes far beyond being able to defend the self from attackers, one must learn to defend the self from the ego and stagnation.
  There is far more to martial arts than physicality and violence.
  I like the Yamabushi traditions for an example of this.

• 122 Koryo // Mar 2, 2009

  Better yet, if your purpose is to win in fighting and self-preservation as Cobra prefers, read “The Art of War”, by Sun Tzu. This book will help you and enhance your strategy. Or a military view of the subject by NICCOLO MACHIAVELLI. These are especially geared toward this particular vantage point.

• 123 Cobra-Kai // Mar 2, 2009

  I tried all the aspects of martial arts not just the fighting and in the end I found I really just wanted to be able to fight and did’nt care about the other stuff. I did’nt care about the disclipline or values only the fighting. And thanks for recommending the book.

• 124 joshuahyoung // Mar 3, 2009

  it is my opinion that without study and mental practice no real skill can be had, The mind works with the body, the mind needs to be strong. A weak mind and a strong body results in a weak person. I’ve yet to meet someone good at fighting who didn’t have a sharp mind.
  I don’t think that anyone can develop real martial skill without addressing, refining and integrating every aspect of their being.

• 125 Tim // Mar 3, 2009

  Wait cobra, you tried all aspects of martial arts but you dropped out how long through.

  It takes YEARS if not DECADES to try indepth all aspects of martial arts.

  Just the fact you said “Yes the mind is the best weapon. But telling my attacker about some guy who lived 1000 years ago will not defeat him. Book work is pointless in a fight I would rather practice my choke holds then read some dusty old history book. The only way a book is good in a fight is if you hit people with it.”

  really speaks for its self. And if you think you “choke holds” would work on a veteran martial artist you are wrong. This is not wrestling. Odds are most would drop you before you could even lay a hand on them. Simple. Choke holds are a joke. Once again… this is not mma.

  How old are you again?

• 126 Tim // Mar 3, 2009

  btw cobra, I think kickboxing , boxing, or wrestling would be more up your ally by the way you talk.

  Like me and others have said, true martial artists look at all sides of martial arts, not just the “fighting” aspect.

  People who don’t, well, they are normally both not good fighters, and make very bad decisions in the end. Martial arts teaches you to use your mind. Simple point in it.

• 127 Cobra-Kai // Mar 3, 2009

  I don’t want to spend decades on something I know will not do anything for me except make me some confucius wannabe. I also don’t plan on fighting a vetran martial artist and I’ve done kung-fu kickboxing a little bit of wrestling and now i’m doing krav maga.

  And please do not over exaggerate a “vetran martial artist” what would you do in a fight then. I would put them in a choke hold would you do some flying move kick? How many times have you tired a choke hold in a fight. Tell me?

• 128 Tzone // Mar 3, 2009

  Ok this is getting a little rediculous. Cobra all we are doing is trying to tell you the benefits from studying martial arts as a whole. Take from it what you want other than that I really don’t understand why you are still trying to defend what you believe in. You choose your path, nobody else. And the same goes for everybody else. They choose their path. It doesn’t mean your path in martial arts is better than others or vis versa. As far as I look at it you would not be able to get a Seasoned veteran karate-ka in my style in a choke hold and apply it properly. (Seasoned in my eyes Yondan or higher) But that doesn’t matter either. Martial arts are a case by case basis and people take from them different things. What doesn’t work for you may work for others. Everyone should just let Cobra train how he wants without critisizing him, obviously he won’t change his mind. But think about this if you read a martial arts book and you take from it one defense that is of value to you and it helps you in a situation then wouldn’t that have been useful? Also on your first comment when you said “Book work for a black belt now that does’nt sound right. It’s martial arts not a history class” Thats obviously what the persons sensei felt necessary and thats the end of it. it’s case by case. Is it wrong? No. Is it Right? To them but not to others.

• 129 Cobra-Kai // Mar 4, 2009

  “Read all these comments. No thanks” That is where I wanted to end this debate. I used to be all about TMA and weapons, forms and belts I used to read and all that stuff and I am saying it did nothing for me. People went to my dojo saw that more than 50% of it was traditional martial arts and walked out a week later. People want to learn to defend themselves fast without 20 years of practice. In my honest opnion TMA is dead MMA is a sport made for the ring not the street. I am not a MMA or a TMA fighter but people see me as a MMA guy. I have seen many veteran martial artists get there heads bashed in by street punks trying some rubbish that never works. If want to listen to what I am saying go ahead if not please do not tell me crap I have heard 100 time before.

• 130 Cobra-Kai // Mar 4, 2009

  “As far as I look at it you would not be able to get a Seasoned veteran karate-ka in my style in a choke hold and apply it properly.” ಠ_ಠ

• 131 Tim // Mar 4, 2009

  because I wouldn’t put you in a choke hold… I’d knock you out before you could even think about doing your fancy wrestling moves. Simple.

  Anyways I’m done replying to you as you don’t even bother to think about stuff, and just be stubborn and hard headed. In the end, its yourself that your hurting… not us. And telling us otherwise would be far from the truth.

  Have a good one!

  (sorry to turn this thread into a “sh!t fest” as it shouldn’t have gone as far as it has).

• 132 Tim // Mar 4, 2009

  Btw guys, I forgot to say, all of you but one had some VERY good comments. This will definately be good reading for people thinking of starting up in the world of M/A.

  Hopefully we all learned something

• 133 Cobra-Kai // Mar 4, 2009

  Tim it seems you are being hard-headed as you cannot have a proper debate about martial arts without getting fustrated and upset. 1 hit KO moves are easily blocked or defended against and don’t have a 100% of working. A choke hold when used properly knocks some out in 8-15 seconds and can cause brain damage if held for longer. Tim I read what you are saying and find arguments against it. Many armed forces and police deparments use choke holds due to the fact they are easy to learn and work. Please do not get angry and start insulting me it makes you look bad

• 134 Tim // Mar 4, 2009

  Who said anything about one hit or KO moves?

  I could have more than 10 effective, not blocked hits by the time the avg person, or martial artist could react. I understand more than usual, but still I’m not invincible.

  I can have a debate, it’s you that just say certain things, rather than give real data, or even reasons to back it up. I’m sorry but by saying everything revolving about fighting, you have nothing to back up what you are saying. You need to learn to go into depth of the ideology about things, rather than just keep relating to fighting, choke holds, or books making you a poser. All are not valid arguements. I think it’s you that need to learn how to debate. In other words… just open your mind once for discussion, rather than try to be a hockey helmet.

• 135 Cobra-Kai // Mar 4, 2009

  Tim where is your data where is your statstics or evidence to back up what your saying? I relate to fighting because thats how I view martial arts as figthing it was made for fighting and it was used for fighting. But then people mixed all this crap into it. But today people are making martial arts about fighting again but a few people hold on to 1000 year old tradtions and flawed ideas.

  The fighting aspect of martial arts should be seperated for people who wish to learn to defend themselves on todays violent streets. I know more people going out to buy self-defense videos and books rather then go to a dojo because they don’t want a belt and a black gi they want to protect themselves and there loved ones from killers and crazy gangsters. I am opening my mind and it’s not changing my opnion do not expect me to agree because I have been over this before with many other people.

• 136 Cobra-Kai // Mar 4, 2009

  Had to post this quote “There is what looks cool in the dojo, and then there is what will save your life on the street” – Jeff Jimmo

• 137 Chris // Mar 4, 2009

  Unless this is somehow related to black belts, I suggest you two gentlemen finish your conversation in the forums.

• 138 Berto Fijor // Apr 20, 2009

  Ok, to me “Belts” and “Dans” are useful but only in the school you come from. That’s because you and your classmates share the expectations of the belt. Blets are used just for dividing steps of your training BUT ONLY IN THAT SCHOOL. For example if i get a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and go to a different school i can’t be expected to be at the same level as the other black belts. So what im trying to say is vitually belts don’t mean sh*t outside you MMA school

  P.S. if you were taught properly then you should bragg to other that you know how to fight it’s only suppost to be used in a “self deffense” and/or ournament situation ( Unles of coarse you win a neat trophy) but many people forget that and only do it for attention. That’s why so many people drop out quickly.

  P.S.S. Last thing i swear… The only good thing about black belts is it can show you dedication to the sport, nothing more or atleast to me

• 139 Berto Fijor // Apr 20, 2009

  Sorry typo i said this “if you were taught properly then you should bragg to other that you know how to fight” but ment to say “if you were taught properly then you should bragg to other that you know how to fight”

• 140 L. Drew // May 5, 2009

  It’s interesting to read all of the different opinions of what time frame one should earn their black belt. My ten year old daughter is testing for her first DAN this month. I put her in Tang Soo Do karate when she was 6. The first dojo I had her in I wisely only signed her up for a 6 month basic contract so that I could feel the school out and determine if she could indeed benefit from lessons. To make a long story short, during the 6 months she attended this particular dojo I watched some kids go through belts with the quickness. In one summer I watched one child earn 2 belts. (I’m talking a two month time period.) Needless to say when my daughter’s 6 months were up I yanked her out of that school right before she was to get her orange belt. I do not know martial arts, but I know enough to know that it takes time to learn the basics skills and you do not earn a black belt in a year.

  When I put her in a new karate school the Master allowed her to stay a yellow belt. I explained her dojo to him and he informed me that several children from her previous dojo came to his school as black belts. When he tested them to see what they knew he said they were only at a yellow or orange belt level. They did not know even half the techniques a first DAN should know. A few students accepted this and were demoted back to wearing a yellow or orange belt and others turned around and walked out of the door. My daughter spent an entire month unlearning her yellow belt form the “wrong” way and relearning it the right way.

  My only point is this, belts can be bought which is a shame. Not only are those types of instructor giving people a false sense of security in believing that they can actually defend themselves, but they are basically robbing whoever is paying for the lessons.

  Unless a person is just extremely gifted (as on tv) it takes more than a year to skillfully learn the basics. My daughter nor the other kids testing for black belt are pros by any means. Earning your first DAN simply means you have studied the basics. They’re only beginning their training.

  I understand alot of forms do not use a belt system. I agree with one of the earlier post that a belt system is merely to identify where a particular student is at in their training among their peers. I like the belt system primarily for the children. It gives them a visual of their growth in their training and can be encouragment to work at earning their next belt. Most children need to see what they are working towards. At this point I “make” my daughter take karate, but I know that when she is further along in her training she will appreciate all that she has learned and will learn.

• 141 GojuGirl // May 5, 2009

  L. Drew: Thank you for a very insightful post… you must be very proud of your daughter.

  I think that the idea of 4 or 5 years is completely reasonable for a first dan, but there is also a question of age.

  In our school, in addition to the technical requirements, there are time and age minimum for each dan rank. You can’t qualify for a shodan until you are at least 16. Kids 12+ may be tested for a junior black belt, but must re-test again at age 16.

  With that said, I teach a kinder program where the belts are awarded for in-class effort and attendance. There are a few benefits to this, a big one being that very young children (4-6) can benefit from the discipline and exercise of a karate class, but aren’t subject to the more rigorous grading requirements of our Kyu belt tests. This means that a child who started at age 3 could take 3 or 4 years before attaining his/her first kyu belt at age 7. (And will have earned 3 white-striped belts in the process).

  You could say that these ranks are “bought” (the fee isn’t much) but it keeps the kids motivated without compromising the integrity of our standard ranking curriculum.

• 142 S.Smith // May 5, 2009

  I like black belts. They are fun to teach martial arts to. When I have black belts (or any-rank) students come to train with me, I know this: they have some experience in movement arts. That helps. Experienced yogis and athletes are welcome too.

  The tough part: unlearning some excessive tension habits.

  But I don’t need to teach black belts where their feet are, and they tend to learn movements much more quickly than beginners.

• 143 L. Drew // May 5, 2009

  Hi GojuGirl, It sounds like you have a wonderful program. My daughter’s school also has a program for the younger children called side kicks which prepares them for when they are at the age to begin as a white belt. Any remarks I made to belts being bought was solely directed at the previous school my daughter attended. As I mentioned these kids were going through belts super fast and didn’t know anything. I in no way compare that to having younger kids in a program to prepare them for when they’re older.

  Oh and yes, i’m very proud of my daughter.

  S.Smith, I totally comprehend what you mean just by being an observing parent over the years. Thank you both for your input.

• 144 JK // May 8, 2009

  I think it is the instructor’s duty to set the standard for his students and award black belts to those who earned it. The belt is worth as little or as much as the instructor, school, or individual make it. In comparison, many sports award trophies, certificates, player of the year, etc… What is the real worth? Is a local soccer league championship worth less than a professional soccer championship? To the person playing, and putting their heart into it, I would think not. Point is, as black belts, we set the standard, regardless of style. There is no wrong or right, there is only diversity. Some styles emphasis soft techniques, others hard, some are more philosophical, other are more practical in the ring, then some are more prepared for the street.
  I personally have two black belts, 1 in traditional TKD (ITF) 5th Dan and 1 in WTF TKD (1st Dan). Which is more valuable? lol
  In one school, I can teach everyone, in the other (WTF) I am the student.
  The belt does a fine job of symbolizing the standard requirement for a particular club or style. That is the point anyways. Other than that, people like to see something tangible in life. So long as students are working in to progress in their style, belt or not, this is a good thing.

• 145 Justin // Jul 19, 2009

  I’m a muay thai guy, and I always find it interesting when my friends who do other arts (TKD for instance) ask me about belt ranks and then have trouble grasping the idea that we don’t have them.

  In muay thai at least, it’s very easy to tell who has better technique; it all becomes clear in sparring.

• 146 AC // Aug 27, 2009

  This discussion always interests me….especially now, when I am about to test for 1st dan in tae kwon do in 2 weeks. There’s no right answer to how long should it take….every school, every master, every student is different. My brother in law trained in TKD in Seoul and acheived 1st dan in 10 months. I have been training 6 1/2 years, so the usual Asian/Western martial art comparison doesn’t work in this situation. Some in my school have been training almost 10 years and have never tested for 1st dan. Certainly no milking tuition fees though, as all classes and tests are free. The master we train with holds one color belt evaluation and one black belt evaluation each year. If you’re ready at that time, you advance, if not, maybe you advance next year. No stripes, only six colors total including white and black. At first it was hard to get used to but over the years, the students who were only interested in the tangible fell away. The high belts have all been training together for years now, and the school is very close-knit. It might not work the same way in each school, but with any school with an instructor and master who is not only technically knowledgeable but also loves his/her students will develop strong students and individuals no matter the belt progression.

• 147 Dalius // Aug 29, 2009

  President of Lithuania DALIA GRYBAUSKAITE is a karate black belt, she is 53 years old.

• 148 Mario // Oct 10, 2009

  There is only one reason i went out and got my black belt and it was to compete at a higher level. The faster I could get there the better. If i did not need a belt to compete I would have been fine. But lucky me I was able to absorb what I was taught very fast and my body responded very well to the riggers or training and it only took me 2 years, but I was going to classes 5 days out of the week and taking two 1 hour class. So that totals 10 hours of training a week.

• 149 Milander // Oct 21, 2009

  3-6 years is the accepted timescale for a Karate black belt but most certainly does not apply to all martial disciplines. I’ve been studying Aikido for 22 years now with 3 different masters over that time. Belts and competitions have always been optional and as I’ve never felt the need to be competitive I’ve entered for any. It is enough to receive the respect of the Dojo and help other students and my masters. My brother is a sergeant major in the RMCP (Bitish military police) he got a black belt in Tae kwon Do (1st Dan) simply to help him ‘get the job’ and has studied since then but not been bothered to do any further belting. However in training on the job (so to speak) he regularly puts down 3rd dan and higher recruits. he guesses he could be 4th or higher dan given the amount of practise (real and practical) he gets in.

  Really belts are for show and to provide a personal reord of acheivement. In our Dojo (mixed arts) belts with full gradings are only ever worn on ceremonial or official occasions. other than that you only see white or black. Studying a martial art is about learning a life skill set not what you are wearing.

• 150 Cnacc // Oct 23, 2009

  I received my BB in Okinawa in 1971 while station there in the USMC. I arrived in Okinawa with my 1st degree brown and was anxious to get my Black belt in Asia. I received it in Shotokan. I taught self defense for a number of years both in the military and later after being discharge. That was a long long time ago. What I have not forgot I can no longer do because of age and past injuries. I recently started studing Krav Maga and have been getting back some of my flexibility. It has motivated me to practice some of my old katas. Unfortunately when I looked for my BB certification and award to show my new instructor I could not find it. I tried to contact the Okinawa Karate Association because I thought that is were I was registered. My old Dojo is long gone I’m sure. Is there any other resources I can try to obtain a copy? I do not need it for classes but I want it especially to show my grand children and friends that the old man was once a BB, besides I worked very hard for my certification
  Chuck

• 151 Copper // Nov 21, 2009

  Haha, thanks for this post. It’s so true… after getting a black belt, I half wish I could have gone back and not taken the test. I’m starting to want martial arts “without belts” now. Too much focus on rank is not good.

• 152 DPend // Nov 27, 2009

  I think the real issue here is, “What do you want from Karate?”. My son has Aspergers and doesn’t do well in organized sports. With all the anti-social aspects of his condition it’s hard for him to be accepted. He recently obtained his Black Belt in SongahmTaeKwondo (ATA) after 3 1/2 years of effort. The confidence and respect he receives as a result of his rank have done so much for him from a personal perspective I would trade it any day for a ton of Prozac. Can he fight real well? No I never went beyond Yelloe belt in Moo Duk Kwan and could dismantle him in second ( Ok I was trained by two different military combat trainers in two different styles and yes I street sparred many times, but…) The point here is that some people are born to fight and Karate will make them better and others are not. For them it’s about sport and attitude. Hopefully they would know enough to protect themselves, but they would probably never be a premiere fighter. There are things in Karate that go way beyond fighting capacity and I think it’s important to keep that in mind. For these people having the structure of Karate is more important than anything else.

• 153 josh young // Nov 27, 2009

  I’d like to note I am an aspie and the condition is most often genetic and tends to be passed from father to son. Martial arts has a nice ordered social system that can be good for aspies.

• 154 RonnieWilliams // Nov 29, 2009

  im a first degree brown belt in shotokan karate.
  it took me 5 years to get to this point…
  in shototkan we have a belt system,that when you master a kata(a series of technical moves)you are then “tested” on that kata.you are being “tested” your on ur technique and the way you execute these moves.if you pass this “test” you will be promoted to the next belt.thats how the belt system would generally go in okinawa.i would stay after class every day. just to train and work on my katas. and when i look around i see people skipping belts just to get to black.i ask myself sometimes “do these people even deserve a black belt”
  they seem to treat black belts like trash.anybody can go to the store and buy a black and not have to a damn thing or even break a sweat.when it took me blood ,sweat, and determination to get to first degree brown.
  this is just my out look on it you can say im wrong but this is how i see it
  one can think the black belt as the dollar bill
  a hundred years ago one dollar bill meant the world to some people
  a hundred years ago when one would see someone wearing a black belt walking down the street they would look in awwh,knowing that this person is diciplined conditioned persistant and most importantly determined to acheive a goal
  and now if a black belt walks down the street the average person would probably think the same
  but for someone like me, you will always have that “what if”
  the part that tells you all these things about that person then you realize he/she could be another one of those people who walk in the dogo with half effort and earn their black belt because they have a deep pocket

  this is just how i see it
  you can say im wrong
  if you want
  im only open for dicussion and ready to consider some more points and see other peoples outlook on this topic

• 155 Pan // Jan 15, 2010

  I am a First degree black belt and I took four- to five years and i am 14 years old training in mixed martial arts. My martial arts is not at all like the UFC fighting and I learn different styles like Krav Maga, taekwon do, Muy Thai, and very little of Brazillian Ju Jitsu. sorry to but into conversations but time should matter and belt rank also doesn’t matter like right now I have 1 and a half years of black belt training. I am guessing most of you are older than me so I don’t have much say but right now I probably have a lot of skill but I can’t really judge myself so read on if you want.
  The beggining of my career was at the ymca.They were not proffesionals at all so I left.When I left I found a great place that I didn’t know of before.When I started I was doing forms and techniques like everyone but then I got moved up because of my time spent there.Although I didn’t mind being moved up, I had no skill moving up but I was still a yellow belt.I was in a generation with some tough people that way when I needed to sparr him I was totally outmatched.At that point I knew it was going to be hard if the yellow belts were hard but as I went more to train and time progressed at my black belt training I beat them so easily it was strange but then I noticed how they started to look up to me like I was unstoppable with unlimited stamina and speed and power.

  I sparr against some blue belts and some beated me so obviouly I haven’t trained enough but they were afaird to sparr me because of them seeing my class. so belts do not matter. Also time does matter if you work hard and have effort your skill woud be incomparible and the other hard working people just challenges your self to do better.

  Last thing is don’t worry about anything other that training yourself and improving thats what matters the most and improvement takes time.fight to break your own limits and you will definitely successful.
  P.S. I hope i have been helpful to clear things up.

• 156 Bryan // Jan 24, 2010

  I took one semester of karate in college, and I rather liked it. Many years later now, I think I would like to get back into it. Mostly for exercise and self defense.

  Can anyone give me an idea on what to look for in a good school and sensei? I’m more concerned about getting good training rather than accumulating belts.

  Thanks for any ideas.

• 157 pan // Jan 25, 2010

  My opinion of a good school is that there probably is a good number of students.Also the teacher must seem like he wants to teach and he should care about improving his students, being able to correct his students critically, and seem like he knows what he is doing. The teacher should not cherge over $138.00 if it does then it might just be a rip off.The last thing is the teacher must have at least 5-10 years of experience and be able to answer most karate related questions.If this doesn’t help then i’m sorry i couldn’t help

• 158 Pef // Feb 4, 2010

  I remember my first street fight , was about 16 years old and about 6-7 youngsters jumped me , first i was a bit confused and little scared … but then my training took over , my body moved on its own avoiding kicks and punches , then i punched the biggest of them , one right hand punch in solar plexus ..
  Next few minutes were the best time of my life , just running after one … not really a run , 3 or 4 steps and punch or kick … and they just fell down , gasping for air.

  Well , few minutes later some 10 other friends of theirs were running to join the fight so i took off , but i was laughing while i ran .

  Next day i went to my dojo and told my fellow mates about it , they told our sensei .. and he gave me my green belt … he said that experience was all he needed for an exam.
  (btw my karate style has a blue-yellow-green-brown-black code for belts)

• 159 pan // Feb 4, 2010

  that is great but you should have been tested and the instructor should need to see your skills first hand and just because you won that time doesn’t mean that everyone is a poser, just as a tip.

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