Martial Development

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Why BJJ Sucked For Self-Defense

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141 Comments

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is an excellent martial art for fighting competitions. After provoking a tussle with an angry redneck, BJJ student Joseph Guichebarou executes a takedown and mount with relative ease. If it were a tournament match, he could have proceeded to choke the man unconscious, or break a limb, or wait for a submission or a referee’s call.


Tapout – Cheezburger = FAIL
NSFW

But this was not a tournament match. It was a scuffle at an Austin Whataburger, with a dozen laughing spectators. And in taking the superior position, the BJJ artist had essentially painted himself into a corner.

If this were an MMA contest, he could have sat on his attacker’s chest and pounded the man’s face. But when you do that at a fast-food restaurant, the police tend to call it an assault. Good luck convincing a judge–even in Texas–that such an act was reasonable or necessary for self-defense.

Neither can our BJJ student simply get up and walk away after scoring his dominance points, lest he get attacked again from behind. So he finds himself in this awkward position, straddling a furious fat man with no underpants, and pleading: “Are you done?”

No retreat, no surrender
While we aren’t shown the ultimate outcome of this brawl in the video, we can nevertheless draw a few lessons from it. First, don’t stand between a Texas big boy and his cheeseburger dinner. Second: if attacked, don’t expect anyone to assist or intervene on your behalf. Third, never pick a fight unless you have a viable exit strategy.

So, was BJJ the best solution to the problem? What do you think?

Categories: Fighting and Self-Defense · Video

141 responses so far ↓

  • 1 Man of the West // Apr 3, 2010

    I would never say that another system “sucks” for self-defense; sure as I say that, somebody will have some fantastic story to tell about how it worked just fine for him. And more power to ‘im, y’know?

    But I have always thought that BJJ, and Judo, too, are too often, too willing to go to the ground. Fine under some circumstances, no question, but too often, to my mind, it just leaves you vulnerable.

    Just my two cents, for what it’s worth.

  • 2 Bob Patterson // Apr 4, 2010

    BJJ guy is darn luck that Fatso’s pal did not decide to boot him in the head while he was mounting tub-a-lub.

  • 3 DS // Apr 4, 2010

    I’d say there are a lot of situations where I’d be worried about BJJ for self-defense. As mentioned above, when there are multiple attackers. Also, adjustment is needed when a knife is involved.

    In this case, it looked like it did fine up to where the video stopped. I don’t think a few knees or elbows would have been excessive since Tubby was still resisting. If Tubby had just been lying there it would be a tougher question (and could have been dangerous because he could be faking.)

    I still haven’t had a chance to listen to the audio but you could argue that if you feel the need to perform a double leg takedown and full mount then you better be willing to throw some knees and elbows. Somewhat like being willing to pull the trigger if you aim a gun.

  • 4 Jay Gischer // Apr 4, 2010

    Honestly, that doesn’t even look like BJJ to me. It looks like the wrestling I learned in high school, long before anyone had ever heard of the Gracies.

    It seems appropriate to the level of threat — yellow-shirt throws a few blows, but they don’t look like he really means it. He ends up looking like all bark, no bite.

    I think the bearded guy gave yellow-shirt some provocation. I couldn’t hear what he said, but it looked like it. It looked like yellow-shirt was maybe about to leave the restaurant. So, maybe not so good there on the self-defense score.

    I agree somewhat with the point about being kicked in the head. It seemed to me that yellow-shirts friend had had enough of him and had gone to wait in the car though. But better awareness of surroundings might have been good, at the very least.

    The subdual strategy that comes to mind watching this is to arrange joint lock(s) such that when yellow-shirt moves, it hurts, and when he lays still, it doesn’t. I didn’t really see that, which is one reason I think of wrestling, not BJJ. A BJJ guy would have done a joint lock on him, in all likelyhood.

  • 5 S.Smith // Apr 4, 2010

    Thanks for the laughs! The music makes extra belly laughs…

    I’ll take “keep quiet while other people are yelling” as another self-defense strategy. There are better ways to sooth yelling people than making wise-cracks. hmm. One wise crack for another…

  • 6 Bob Patterson // Apr 5, 2010

    “While we aren’t shown the ultimate outcome of this brawl in the video, we can nevertheless draw a few lessons from it.”

    I would add one more to your list: always wear underpants.

  • 7 Jon Law // Apr 5, 2010

    This is a very funny video. Peoples comments from the Self-protection point of view are valid, but I’ll ad my bit.

    The lardy blokes mates had already left, they were clearly sick of him. AS was the rest of the restaurant by the looks. Lardy was way out of order with his attitude, it’s not surprising people told him so.

    The BJJ bloke didn’t know what to do once he had dominant position, he could’ve cranked that kimura properly, or better he could really have taken a dominant position and controlled the lardy one. Why not attempt to get the bloke face down and tie him up properly.

    If not he could’ve gone for an Eddie Bravo Twister or similar, that would tie him up.

    Overall the situation didn’t look very dangerous, lardy was being filmed all the way through and managed to make a complete fool of himself before and during the fight

  • 8 Scott // Apr 5, 2010

    Always wear underpants to a monkey dance.
    This was rather duel like. American Hamburger Joint Rassling. It always starts with the hurling of insults. Both guys are open to bites and groin grabs, but neither one takes the opportunity because that would be dishonorable. If I was on the jury I’d put them both away for public dueling in a family restaurant.
    Then again I’ll never be on a jury because I know too much.

    But over all a very good point, submission and dominance are ineffective unless the loser agrees to subordination. Or gets knocked out, tied up, or worse. I watched the four cops draw their guns on a guy with a hatchet the other day. He dropped the hatchet and picked up a 2×2 piece of plywood. They yelled at him to drop it for a few minutes and then he ran away across a field. They chased, finally he accidentally cornered himself and then he gave up. Once they put the cuffs on him they kept a knee in his back because he was the kind of guy who would have run away again with the cuffs on.

  • 9 CJ // Apr 5, 2010

    Sorry if I don’t take self defense comments to seriously from a bunch of guys on a website about taiji for health and some lame 80′s ninja rap with a pencil wushu guy and a bunch of back acting 10 year olds.

    The guy who attacked was subdued. The bearded dude was a beginner judging by that take down and some of the mistakes he made in controlling the man once down. But he still defended himself. He didn’t want to hurt the guy, just have a laugh at his expense it seems.

    Yeah, you need to be aware of people with friends and knives and all that mess. That said, he was able to deal with his one man, more than most karate/kungfu/TKD/etc people can pull off.

    As to BJJ, the same moves that work in a ring work on a street. What you think would happen to his shoulder or elbow had he jerked it without concern? Ask Tim Sylvia, he had his arm elbow snapped by that same technique.

  • 10 The Person Not the Art // Apr 9, 2010

    Knee on chest position would be just fine here, and left the bearded guy ready to see others. Do not make blanket statements about a style based on one funny video. I once saw a video of a CMA fellow getting whipped by a BJJ practitioner, should I judge all CMA by that video? That would be unfair on all accounts.

  • 11 Chris // Apr 9, 2010

    CJ,
    I’ll be sure to ask Tim Sylvia about his Whataburger match.

    The Person Not the Art,
    I am not making blanket statements based on one funny video. I am using one funny video to illustrate what might otherwise appear to be a groundless theoretical point.

    You probably missed the submission near the end of the video. It happened when the BJJ guy realized he could not win the fight–a fight that he provoked–and so he had to ask the other guy to stop fighting back. He asked at least 9 times by my count. That is what I call pleading, but you are welcome to judge it as effective self-defense instead, if you like.

  • 12 Thomas // Apr 10, 2010

    Why would you call it pleading? He had already won the fight (because the fat guy was no longer fighting), he was asking more out of respect or a show of dominance by my watch. A verbal and mental submission is just as valid as a physical one.

    Pleading would be the case if the bearded man could not dictate the situation, but this is not what is going on. He is clearly in control, yet you say he is pleading like he has no choice but to ask for the fight to stop. This is a pretty ridiculous assumption, because the situation is quite the reverse.

  • 13 Chris // Apr 10, 2010

    Whut? No, Mr. Tapout hadn’t already stopped fighting. If he had, there would have been no reason for Mr. Beard to keep asking him to stop, or to keep asking if he was “done yet”. At the end of the video, both of them are still tangled up on the ground.

    This is real life, not a friendly dojo sparring session. If you are depending on your opponent to give up, honorably conceding a technical defeat, then you are not in control. If you are running down the clock, waiting for a third party to finish the fight you started, then you are not in control.

    And if the only way out of a fight that you provoked is to escalate it yet again, and to hope and pray that your action doesn’t lead to jail time, then you are not in control.

  • 14 Thomas // Apr 10, 2010

    Are you assuming that the end of the video is all that happened? I’ll tell you what happened after, they both got up and Mr. Tapout left with his tail between his legs. He did concede, and did not attack after he was let up.

    This is real life, not some ridiculous dystopic urban fantasy where every shadow hides a mugger and every floor is littered with broken glass. He wasn’t waiting for a third party, he was waiting for Mr. Tapout to calm down, which is exactly what happened. Not everything has to escalate up, this is a clear case where you can use dominant position and control to de-escalate a situation.

    Is that not the ideal of “self-defense?”

  • 15 Chris // Apr 10, 2010

    I remember a fight on the Seattle waterfront around three years ago. Just like in this video, it started with some meaningless argument. One man threw a punch, and knocked the other guy down, where he stayed, apparently conceding defeat. So the “winner” started walking away with his girlfriend. He wasn’t expecting the “loser” to get back up, and hit him with a flying kick in the back of the head. The winner get his skull cracked open on the sidewalk, and lay motionless in a pool of his own blood, while the loser took off running. Oops!

    Don’t try to steer this discussion onto the “muggers and broken glass” meme. People really do get shot, beaten with clubs, and punched to death for nothing more than their naivete. (FYI, my own fantasies usually have happier endings.)

    If I ever decide to tackle and publicly humiliate an angry drunk, in order to put him in his place…then wait on the ground for him to calm down, and why wouldn’t he?…while keeping him “under control” as you put it…and I am finally able to walk away intact, due to sheer luck…I hope you will give me the same celebratory treatment as our illustrious Mr. Beard.

    Marc MacYoung says this isn’t good self-defense, but maybe he is just jealous because his ground game is no good. Ha Ha.

  • 16 Thomas // Apr 10, 2010

    Sheer luck? I would say that this situation is more the norm, looking at the comparative numbers of actual homicides to street fights.

    If you did put down a drunk and hold him there until he calmed down, yes, I would congratulate you. First for keeping yourself safe, then again for not crippling the other man unnecessarily.

    Marc MacYoung even states “Self-defense is about effectively ending an attack, quickly and with minimum damage to yourself.” I would say that Mr. Beard did this quite well.

    Going further, I think you’re propagating a misnomer in calling this a case of self-defense in the first place, since it’s really an altercation between two drunks, even if one is substantially more drunk than the other. Let’s take a look at the points you outlined:

    “First, don’t stand between a Texas big boy and his cheeseburger dinner.” This is true. Mr. Beard should have kept his cool and stayed quiet. Having admitted to knocking back a few himself, this is not a surprising lapse in judgement.

    “Second: if attacked, don’t expect anyone to assist or intervene on your behalf.” There are documented cases of both people rushing to the aid of a victim in need, and people standing idly by while one person is graphically attacked. This is neither of those cases. It’s clear both to the people present and to most people who watch the video that neither party is in any real danger of physical harm. That’s what makes this case more amusing than dangerous. If the fight escalated to a point where injury was a reasonable possibility, we can only hope that people would have separated the pair as necessary. Since it didn’t go that direction, there’s no way to know for sure, and hopeless posturing to assume otherwise.

    “Third, never pick a fight unless you have a viable exit strategy.” This is where you are most wrong. Mr. Beard had a very viable exit strategy, one that took the whole of the situation into account. As I’ve stated before, he took the best possible option once the fight started, that is, controlling Mr. Tapout until the hunger-fueled adrenaline faded and our lardy friend was more willing to end this on amenable terms. And guess what? Mr. Beard was right in his judgement call. We know this because both parties walked away without injuries, grudges, or legal complications.

  • 17 Austin Fitness Gyms // Apr 11, 2010

    Good thing the underwear-less guy didn’t have a friend or 3 willing to back him up or grappling guy would have ate a few shoe soles w/his dinner.
    What is the alternative?
    Krav Maga – Pound the guys face in & go to jail? I don’t think so.
    Hapkdo / the right restraining technique would have pinned or subdued, and dosed a little pain for the big guy to stop and learn his lesson.

  • 18 godspeed // Apr 12, 2010

    i dont know the exact quote by any means but it is something bruce lee said and is very true..

    essentially…
    if someone pushes you- you hit them
    someone hits you- you break their limb
    they break your limb- you kill them

    jailtime or not, no sympathy in the fight means you win.

  • 19 Anon // Apr 15, 2010

    This reminds me of a story of my own, which I’ll share – forgive me for the lengthy post but to describe it in words is more difficult than video…

    I was about 20, and had been studying hapkido for just a few months – an MA newbie, but grew up in a rough area. I opened the door to a KFC for my girlfriend, and as she entered two young men about my age and size entered and shoved her out of the way. She verbally abused one of them on the spot. As we approached the counter to order, one of them returned with an insult that could not be left unchecked. I threw a right hook that I’m ashamed to say I telegraphed like crazy, and he dodged it, stepped behind me, and took me in a headlock before I knew what happened. Just as I was thinking “that’s not good”, I saw his mate’s shoes approaching, and envisioned the kick to the face I was about to recieve. I backed into a wall heavily, lifted my left arm under his chin and pinned him to a wall by his throat. His headlock was no longer a choking threat to me, his breathing was restricted by tricep to tracea, his friend could not approach me between two tables as he was in line for a straight kick, and I had my right arm free to punch to the face or kidneys while his left arm was too far away and his right stuck between me and the wall. I was clearly about to win by KO. At this point I noticed the entire staff of the store watching me, the guy at the counter on the phone, presumably to the police, and a CCTV camera in the corner. It was at this point that I said to the guy, “OK I’ve won, I’ll let you go if you let go first.” He did. He and his mate left (after refusing to shake my hand – hey, I’m old school!) and my girl got her zinger meal, and I stayed out of the lockup.

    Thinking back to that event while watching this video, I’d say that beard man got it right. Kicking someone’s ass so that you can get a cavity search and a night in jail and a day in court, is not a win.

    Besides I’m a lightweight and wanted the little guy to win hahahaha

  • 20 Rik // May 24, 2010

    I later read that the bearded guy had approx 3/4 months of BJJ / MMA training. The fat guy was wanted in another state for some offences like DUI ?
    What was funnier still was someone had given the fat guys MySpace profile where he describes himself a “” Fit and in good conditions “” he didn’t mention he was a piss head.

  • 21 Will // May 29, 2010

    I’m going to assume because he seemed to attempt an “americana” armlock that this guy had at least seen some BJJ. However, his technique, and his choice of technique and position indicate a rudimentary knowledge at best. Contrary to the claim at the start of the video he never “mounts” his opponent. In fact, he uses a headlock, which you will never see an experienced student of BJJ do if he can help it. A very misleading video at best. In any case the best technique here would have been a cellphone and a call to the local boys in blue.

  • 22 Dan Austin // Jun 10, 2010

    You guys are all off-base. First of all BJJ is a very useful art for self-defense because it assumes you may find yourself in bad positions and gives you an answer for those. It also has extensive standing techniques for self-defense, but in any case how you use it is up to you.

    This is not a case of self-defense. Amusing as it is, the guy with the beard provoked a fight and was very stupid and inexperienced in how he handled the ground. At 2 minutes in his opponent deliberately goes to his pocket and takes out a credit card and tries to cut him with it, presumably going for his eye. Had that been a real knife it would have been extremely serious of course.

    BJJ is an extremely useful adjunct to your self-defense repertoire; just ask the Dog Brothers who address weapons as well. But there is no one art that covers all the bases, so singling out one as “bad” is as unenlightened for a martial artist as missing the critical part of this video.

  • 23 Adam // Jun 15, 2010

    Sorry for the thread Necro. I think the bearded BJJ noob was correct in his approach, I don’t think any unarmed style would have help him if fatties friends stepped in. Sorry, but I’ve seen no viable defense against multiple attackers in any style. But then again I’m a blue belt and therefore biased.

    Anyway that’s irrelevant. The main reason I’m comment is fatso shirt. Does anyone else find it almost retardidly(sp?) ironic that he was wearing a Tapout shirt while he got schooled by a 100% NOOB in Jiu Jitsu.

  • 24 Kalona // Jul 2, 2010

    Wow, initially I was a bit skeptical about the video, but then i compared it to the fights in the UFC and other MMA promotions and it seems this is all there is to BJJ and I agree, for self defense it’s lame. you violate all the principles of self defense ( eg: never limit your own mobility, be ready to get out as soon as possible, be able to subdue your opponent without enabling him to sue you for your last penny. I can’t believe people recommend BJJ for self defense.

  • 25 sankyu // Jul 6, 2010

    man of west: Judo is not so quick to take a fight to the ground if we have no choice then we will go to the ground such as a failed throw or a failed take down but the throw is the first choice the ground second choice , we have options and we know how to control a fight up top and dont give me a striking art point of view because I am a karateka and a
    kick boxer and a Judoka and BJJ is a great selfdefense , its like any other martial art it depends on the person not the art and I think BBJ guy handel the fight well .

  • 26 sankyu // Jul 6, 2010

    kalona: don’t be so quick to Judge Ne-waza or ground work THAT is what is missing from most martial arts stand up is great but ground is needed and had this guy used stand up Mauy thai ,karate TKD or kung fu the out could of been worse and the charge of assault and battery would apply trust me I know my son and I take Karate , Judo ,BJJ unoffically meaning we cross train in it but dont care for the belt ranking just the knowledge of BJJ ,my son had a school fight and the whole fight was caught on tape and karate was used with some grappling from Judo and a mount that lead to some G&P to end the fight and his whole life has turnned upside down for the lost of control so the BJJER USED THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF FORCE

  • 27 Ken Cox // Jul 11, 2010

    The so-called BJJ fellow never even broke a sweat.

    He safely played with the fat bully and really treated him with considerable compassion.

    Hopefully, the fat bully will think twice next time.

    This video doesn’t warrant the conclusions made by the poster.

  • 28 Chris // Jul 11, 2010

    Ken,
    He doesn’t get credit for not breaking a sweat, or teaching a bully a lesson. The question is, did he remove himself from danger?

  • 29 Thomas // Jul 11, 2010

    I think a more relevant question is if he was in any danger to begin with. It seems pretty obvious from the start that our large yellow friend was in no condition to fight back effectively, and none of his friends were planning on throwing bearded-guy a boot party. He used an appropriate amount of force that he was being confronted with, probably even greater force.

  • 30 Ken Cox // Jul 11, 2010

    I don’t see the assumed BJJ fellow as ever in danger.

    I think he very safely performed a public service for a restaurant and its customers.

    The bully’s friends had already abandoned him, and the rest of the customers seemed to have enjoyed the spectacle.

    I see the bearded fellow as competent, compassionate, good-humored, and never for a moment in trouble or danger.

    If in the bearded fellow’s place, myself, lacking his skill, I might have gotten angry or scared, and this would have set me up for getting hurt.

    I think for myself, in self-defense, I would have tried to blend in with the paint.

    In any event, I appreciate Chris getting this conversation going.

    It helps to talk about these things.

  • 31 Mohammad Khan // Jul 12, 2010

    For those of you saying that BJJ has lots of stand-up defense… you’re somewhat right and somewhat wrong. BJJ was originally just the ground parts of the original japanese jiujutsu, and now, it has started to compensate for that by adding standup defense… however, in the west, it is rare to find any jiujutsu schools that are not BJJ, and, therefore, BJJ instructors have not perfected standup defense techniques yet.

    I don’t understand why the BJJ guy didn’t go for a choke-out. As long as he didn’t overdo it, the fight would have ended quickly and w/o the BJJ guy looking idiotic.

  • 32 Adam // Jul 12, 2010

    Mohammed. Have you ever studied BJJ? I bet you haven’t based on your comments. BJJ is originally turn of the century Judo, nothing close to “just the ground parts of tradtional jujutsu”. Your really out of line trying to explain BJJ to people who actually train BJJ. BJJ doesn’t have to adapt to any style. Every other style has had to adapt to BJJ.

    He didn’t got for a choke probably because he wasn’t in position for many chokes.

  • 33 Mohammad Khan // Jul 13, 2010

    Wow, what a hostile response, especially when I was trying to keep my post respectful. I have not studied BJJ, but I have done some research, especially on the history of the japanese jiujutsu offshoots such as BJJ, hapkido and judo. I have also seen the original Gracie school in Brazil’s practice from 2 years ago, and they did not even think about striking or strike defense. However, I have noticed that recently schools have shifted to address this flaw. I could reveal what I have found in my research about the offshoots of traditional jiujutsu, but I know that it would start a war on this thread, and I don’t have the patience for that.

    I also thought that the BJJ guy could have put the “redneck” in a choke by getting the cartoid arteries by putting one of the rednecks arms against one of the arteries and BJJ arm blocking the other artery and holding redneck arm in place on the other side. However, since I have not studied BJJ, I acknowledge that he may not have been in position to do so.

  • 34 Adam // Jul 13, 2010

    My bad Mohammed. I was in a bad mood last night, and though I didn’t mean to sound hostile. I guess in an effort to be blunt I came off more confrontational than I intended. If you watch the forst UFCs the Gracies did have striking, which looked like judo atemi waza meets boxing. That striking has evolved to a more very basic Thai Boxing esque style recently. However in 5 years of BJJ I’ve done striking maybe all of 4 times in a BJJ class. When we say standup we generally mean takedowns, and even striking in BJJ is not intended to be like it is in striking styles. If a BJJer is taught to strike in a bjj/vale tudo class. They are generally taught to strike their way into a clinch or a takedown , not to try and knock the other guy out. Or if faced with more than one attacker just to strike their way to an opening so we can can run away. Most academies have also been offering actual Muay Thai classes if you really want to learn how to strike. However BJJ is descended from 1915 Judo, and has as much in common with Japanese Jujutsu as Sambo does. Which isn’t a lot

    You can Arm Triangle someone from side control, he also had a Brabo Choke option. But the arm triangle is better set up from mount, or at least attacking near side in side control, he was attacking for a far side americana(he should have gone for a kimura). Its my personal belief, and I know others share it that side control is better for joint type submissions on top. If he was 3 months into BJJ he probably didn’t know how to set up a brabo choke, and most likely didn’t know how to set up a arm triangle from side control. Honestly I have no idea why he did what he did, only he does. If it was me I would have gone to mount. But the fact remains we weren’t there, and we aren’t him. I have no clue what his strengths and weaknesses are or what actually went on down there. Only he does.

  • 35 Thomas // Jul 13, 2010

    Just to go into detail about the history of BJJ, Mohammad, it is not a direct derivative from Traditional Japanese Jujutsu, but of Judo. It was brought to Brazil by Mitsuyo Maeda, one of Kano Sensei’s students selected to spread Judo around the world. He landed in Brazil, where he taught the Gracie family. The Brazilians did not differentiate between the terms “Judo” and “Jujutsu” and ended up using the latter. This is still evident on the Gracie website, which states that Maeda was “a champion of Jiu-Jitsu and a direct student of Kano, at the Kodokan in Japan.” This is, of course, an unfortunate case of either mistranslation or misinformation.

    http://www.gracieacademy.com/history.asp
    http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml
    http://www.completemartialarts.com/whoswho/halloffame/mitsuyomaeda.htm

  • 36 Ken Cox // Jul 13, 2010

    What a profitable commentary by Thomas regarding the relationship between traditional Judo and Gracie Jujitsu.

    For myself, I gain much from the contemplative comparison of “do” and “jitsu.”

    We can very easily fall into the perception of techniques as the basis of differences between “do” and “jitsu,” when, in reality, the true differences lie in the process and attitude of giving and receiving.

    How does one teach, and to what end, and how does one learn, and to what end?

    Both Jigaro Kano and Morihei Ueshiba experienced their first motivational awakenings from the study of Kito Ryu.

    Kito Ryu survives today, if it survives, as a philosophical study of intent with application; and, to my knowledge, it has no physical form.

    Helio Gracie, as the fight with Kimura began to take shape, said that he, Helio, expected Kimura to win, and that he, Helio, wanted to see how Kimura would defeat him.

    What an interesting, even noble, intent.

    How worthy.

    Helio Gracie might have taught a “jitsu,” but he lived the “do.”

    In that regard, then, the concepts of so-called martial arts and self-defense have no relationship to each other, despite their outward appearance of similarity.

  • 37 Mohammad Khan // Jul 13, 2010

    I am glad to see, Adam, that you understood what I meant about standup defense. I meant strike defense.

    I found a slightly different, more detailed tale in my research about the origin of BJJ from jujutsu/judo (i don’t use them interchangeably, but they were a lot more similar back when judo and BJJ were founded) involving Maeda. It had to do with back when judo was being tested against various jujutsu schools.

    I see… so it was a beginner decision to not go for the choke because his knowledge was lacking at the time.

  • 38 Adam // Jul 13, 2010

    Mohammed,

    I wouldn’t call it a beginners choice to go for the americana instead of the arm triangle or brabo. He just did it like a beginner, and possibly didn’t know those submissions. There are black belts out there who would most likely do the same thing he did(but with better technique. I probably wouldn’t, my preference is to get to mount, and work form there. But that’s just my preference. BJJ doesn’t work like Japanese Jujitsu where you do this technique, then this technique, then another technique in sequential order and poof supposedly your adversary is defeated(probably not though). The methodology it get to the floor. Gain any viable dominant position of your choosing(as I said I prefer mount, he seems to like side control). Control the person and submit him with any viable submission of your choosing. BJJ is more “free form” for lack of a better term. He established his dominant position of choice and went for his submission of choice. Because he was a beginner his technique really sucked, but his plan was solid. That doesn’t mean going for the Arm Triangle or Brabo or something else wouldn’t be just as solid if he knew it. That doesn’t mean getting knee on stomach or mount and doing something totally different wouldn’t have been just as good either. Its all about personal choice, and his was to get side control and try for an Americana. BJJ is more Free form. If he was a blue, purple, brown, black, red, pink belt he may very well have tried the exact same thing. He probably would have just executed it a lot better. Once again to beat a dead horse, its whatever you want to do there are no prescribed “game plans”.

    As for Maeda. He taught the Gracies. Maeda was a Judo guy trained at the Kodokan not a Jujutsu guy. Thing is, at that time in history Judo looked a lot different than it does today, and most people, even in Japan, called Judo “Kano Jiu-Jitsu”.

  • 39 ronin // Jul 18, 2010

    I dont meen to come of ass angry or arrogent but i think it is abosuletly ignorrent to say BJJ isnt useful for self defense. its credentials alone should be enough. its the constant system of self defense taught in U.S. armed forces, and was the foundation for the marines MCMAP system. Its also the main system taught to cops to control violent suspects.and long before UFC was a sport and was a dragout slugfest. it proved its usefullness to control and dominate other opponents bigger and stronger.
    So yes i believe its good for self defense. even with whether it was because he was new or too drunk. using basic BJJ techniques he was able to control, and dictate the larger bigger opponent. this is precisily what BJJ was made to do. i from personal testimony as well as knowledge of other systems. especially striking systems. or systems that dont offer resistant/realistic grappling.(bujinkan) can testify that after only 3/4 months of training ( provided the previos post about his expierience was correct) you couldnt even hope to end a situation that well,and legally.
    He could have ground and pounded him had this been in some dark secluded place, until he was unable to go on, or just like he did in this case which was control him until he gaveup or authorities arrived. Im sure though you couldnt here it somebody was calling the cops.
    if he had used any strikes they could have definitly argued assault in any situation, however restraining an opponent like this definitly would not be.

    as said no martial art has all the answers. plus styles dont when fights. people do. Even schools that offer things life knife training or gun disarming seldom offer it from a very realistic point of view.(i.e. spinning crescent kicking a gun pressed up against your head.from behind)
    i leave you with this. If restraining an opponent like this in a public environment where im sure someone is calling the police isnt the best course of action for when you have to defend yourself( i.e. when the altercation has already began) then what is?

  • 40 alanchives // Jul 28, 2010

    How did this suck? And clearly the fat, drunken, arrogant idiot initiated all violence. The fat, drunken, arrogant idiot was there to fight, the “BJJ student” was there to eat. Now, I had lived in america’s butthole- Texas, and I’ve been to my share of Whataburger restaurants. Normally, they are full of homeless people looking for air conditioning and a free ice water. Since Texas is full of fat, drunken, arrogant idiots, they’re bound diffuse into such an eating establishment, whether by hunger or sheer stupidity.

    I think the skinny guy used just enough force necessary in that situation. It was a public area, and the actors would fall under liability of the property owner, in addition to laws. Using more force than necessary could have been unlawful. After the leg takedown, he issued a wrist lock which is a fine amount of force for the fat idiot lunging at him. When the drunken texan fat idiot swing his fist toward the skinny guy’s face it warranted further force though the skinny guy seemed to use good judgement in showing restraint because the fat texan drunk invalid simply wiggled on the floor drooling like a chubby cross-eyed baby.

    For anyone wanting to know the outcome of the fight think of it this way- He was smeared on the greasy ground of a fast food joint by a guy 100 pounds lighter in front of a crowd of laughing onlookers. I highly doubt there was more altercation once the skinny guy got up and finished his meal.

    By the way, whataburgers are surprisingly not as greasy as I thought they’d be.

    And, this style is more like Aikido or Judo than BJJ. To call what was in this video “Jiu jitsu” is like calling a BB Gun a tank.

    But what do I know, I’m just a student in Samurai Kobudo.

  • 41 alanchives // Jul 28, 2010

    I also want to add that if you approached me and said Jiu Jitsu, and especially Brazilian Jiu Jitsu “suck for self defense” and then proceeded to attack me, you’d be licking your own ass before you had a chance to change your mind. I’m not officially trained in Jiu Jitsu, though it does not mean that I wouldn’t use it’s methodology to bring a resolution to the altercation.

    The entire “Brazilian” point of the style is that it did not fall under certain rules and regulations mandated after it’s inception. This means that “Brazilian” style Jiu Jitsu’s teachings separate itself from other styles because of it’s violent and relatively easily fatal moves. The worst of which are removed from most modern competative martial arts.

  • 42 Chris // Jul 28, 2010

    Marines don’t do self-defense.
    Winning isn’t self-defense.
    Bragging about how tough you are IRL isn’t self-defense.
    Martial arts isn’t self-defense.

    Wim Demeere posted an interesting video a few days ago. Two men scuffling in a field, one in a white jacket, and one in black, and it goes to the ground. For a few seconds, it is an even match. Then suddenly, a third man runs in out of nowhere. He seems to be a friend of the man in black. While the man in black holds his adversary down, the third one delivers fifteen huge kicks to the victim’s head. That is where the video clip ends.

    The reason BJJ sucked for self-defense here, is that no style of martial arts can transform a voluntary fight for dominance into a case of self-defense. Once you start trying to embarrass an angry drunk in a burger joint, you have already lost in a significant way, and securing a mount doesn’t change that.

    So why am I picking on BJJ in particular? I am not. I have made variations on this point three times, using three different martial arts: Wing Chun, BJJ, and Krav Maga. It is interesting to compare the responses on each thread.

  • 43 Anon // Jul 28, 2010

    @Chris

    First off let me state I agree with you on fighting vs self defense. Bravo, could not have said it better myself.

    However, I disagree with your analogy of this video. I believe it illustrates the necessity for grappling training in real life. Neither of these combatants were trained in anything. This is painfully obvious. But lets pretend for a second that the guy in the white jacket was in two following scenarios. Both will be trained in either striking or grappling only. Keep in mind most BJJ guys and all MMA fighters crosstrain to an equal amount in standup styles(as well as grappling) these days.

    Scenario 1: Guy in the black jacket(BJ) is untrained but the gentleman in the white jacket(WJ) is trained in only a striking art(Karate, Boxing, Wing Chun, etc…). The fight starts and WJ starts by beating on BJ in pristine striking fashion, but is unable to avoid the clinch due to the tight space. WJ is also unable to put BJ down with strikes. Now they’re in a clinching match and they go over the railing, get back up and continue wrestling. BJ takes down WJ just like in the video because WJ being primarily a striker doesn’t consistently train clinching and takedown defense. Now they are both on the ground as shown in the video, and evenly matched since neither actively trains ground fighting significantly. BJ is still able to restrain WJ, and BJ’s friend is still able to kick him in the head 15 times. Why? Because even though WJ is an student of striking he was ill prepared to be on the ground. In ignoring this stage of combat, he essentially wrote his own death sentence. Just because he didn’t address ground combat, didn’t mean he would never wind up there.

    Scenario 2: Guy in the black jacket(BJ) is untrained, but this time the gentleman in the white jacket(WJ) is trained in only a grappling art(Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Judo, Wrestling, etc…). Fight starts off as we see in the video as neither has trained striking skills to speak off. They clinch and fall over the railing still, as that would catch even the best strikers or grapplers. However they get back up as in the video and stay in the clinch. Now BJ attempts his weak takedown attempt and WJ, seeing BJ’s friend, is able to keep BJ’s takedown from being successful. Due to the takedown defense he regularly practices in his grappling art.

    For arguments sake though lets say the fight still goes to the ground. Maybe WJ didn’t see BJ’s freind and took him down, maybe he got taken down and decided to stay there. We could even say they didn’t get up after they tripped over the rail, as this is a major danger in any street fight. Now WJ sees BJ’s friend coming, and knows the ground is a terrible place to be when confronted by more than 1 person. Since he trains grappling however he is able to use his superior ground skills to reverse BJ and get back to his feet to escape. Because he knew how to fight on the ground he was able to keep from getting pinned under BJ and escape. Something neither the real WJ nor WJ striker in scenario 1 was unable to do.

    Remember you can ignore something as hard as you want. But that doesn’t mean you won’t come face to face with it one day. Will you be prepared when that day comes?

  • 44 Chris // Jul 29, 2010

    Anon, a “pristine” NHB striking performance incapacitates the other party in very short order. There is no “taking of licks”, unpleasant but tolerable, to be followed by an inevitable clinch and/or takedown. No, the opponent loses their ability to stand, to breathe, to fight, and it’s done.

    The relevance I see between Wim’s video and the Whataburger event is this: you can never be sure how many attackers you will be forced to deal with, in the end, if you decide to stick around and battle for supremacy.

  • 45 Anon // Jul 29, 2010

    @chris

    I’m sorry but that’s never been the case. In the early “no rules” matches, where everything but eye gouges and biting was illegal the best of strikers were never able to do enough damage to end the conflict prior to the clinch. Even with throat and groin strikes. The 1 or 2 strike knockouts are a myth. (Granted one strike knockouts do exist, but they are rare and matters of chance rather than skill).
    The best strikers in MMA(Machida, Rutten, Liddell, etc…) all espouse that their ability to end fights with striking is largely dependent on their ability to avoid the clinch, defend takedowns and to stay on their feet. Skills they learn from cross training in grappling. They admit that if they only trained striking they would be taked down before they could finish.

    It generally on average takes at least 25-50 strikes to end a fight, that is more than enough time to clinch and get taken to the ground. Granted, it may take less strikes if they aren’t properly defended, but no less than 10 most of the time. I can bum rush and get you to the ground within the time you can throw 3-5. Way before you do enough damage to take me out of the fight.

    If you don’t train to defend these, which means training grappling, there is a good chance you will be unable to finish the fight with strikes. as it will largely be dependent on your opponent choosing not to clinch with you.

    As for the video, this ties in too. Say hipster was trained in striking, and fatboy tackled him. Hipster didn’t know how to sprawl and found himself taken down. Oh well back to square one. They’re still on the ground, and fatboy’s notional friends are still there to kick him. That’s even worse of a situation, because now ‘striking hipster’ doesn’t have the skill to get back to his feet. Just because you don’t train grappling doesn’t mean someone can’t take you to the ground. That’s like a grappler saying “I can’t be punched because I don’t train striking”.

    Fact is no one can really train you to beat multiple opponents. Because it just takes that one to tackle you while you are fighting the other(s). Then you’re still on the ground in a multiple opponent scenario, only now your a helpless fish out of water.

  • 46 Chris // Jul 29, 2010

    I’ve been knocked out with one punch, I’ve been incapacitated with pressure point strikes, I’ve been held completely at a loss by expert strikers. (Odds are I’ve also been downed by a groin or throat punch or two and since forgotten about it, because it was completely unremarkable.) And I’ve seen it done to others. And I’ve done it to others. And I am not special. So I don’t care what some wannabe experts on the TV “admit” is possible or impossible. I also trained in BJJ before it was cool, BTW.

    I thought this was a thread about self-defense, but you keep accidentally or intentionally moving the goalposts, as if the objective was to beat single or multiple opponents. That is possible too (no matter what any alleged experts said), but it is certainly a different pursuit than trying to evade single or multiple attackers in order to preserve oneself whole.

  • 47 Anon // Jul 29, 2010

    @Chris

    Way to get confrontational dude. I was agreeing with you that running or staying out of it would be the best option. You were the one who posted the video as if to imply striking trumped grappling in self defense.

    Since you insist on having a dick measuring contest, This will be my last post. Let me assure you that I didn’t start playing this game yesterday. I didn’t even start this game yesterday, 10 years ago. I’m not a UFC fanboy. In fact I haven’t watch a MMA fight since it went mainstream and became an entertainment staple for the inbred WWE/NASCAR fanbase. If you think your more knowledgeable than Machida or Inosanto, you need to rethink your sense of propriety.

    Just remember your not everybody. Not everyone has a glass chin or a low pain tolerance. And, not every multiple opponent scenario are your attackers going to let you strike, separate them and play the striking game. That may work with drunk rednecks a small percentage of the time. But if you think experienced MS13 or skinhead lowlifes aren’t going to flank you, bumrush you, and render you helpless no matter your skill level, well, your just living in a fantasy world. Now which do you think is more likely to jump you the white trash alcoholic or the prison hardened gangbanger?

    Anyway I’ve said my peace, and nothing more will convince you. Explaining these points to a TMA/RBSD guy is like explaining evolution to a Baptist. No matter what evidence and logic you can present them with, they still stick to their dogmatic delusions.

  • 48 Ken Cox // Jul 30, 2010

    Interesting.

    I come from a boxing background, and I hit harder than your average bear.

    I’ve knocked people down, but I’ve never knocked anyone “out.”

    My older son has twelve years of Judo and a black belt, and four years of BJJ and has fought in professionally promoted MMA cage fights.

    My older son moves the cage fight to the ground as quickly as possible, but, says that in an uncontrolled street situation he would utilize throws, standing controls, and otherwise stay on his feet.

    My older son does not have striking on his menu of options and it would never occur to him to hit anyone.

    My younger son has a wrestling and BJJ background, and we call him the “Bringer of Pain.”

    You don’t want to spar with my younger son because of the pain (ouch! ouch! ouch!).

    However, my younger son recently traveled to Russia and former Soviet states as a counselor to troubled male Russian teens.

    In the culture of the institutions where my younger son counseled, he experienced several fights a day with some very tough young men.

    He told me that these young Russian men living in institutions have an extraordinarily high pain tolerance, and their pain tolerance made it hard for him to contend with them.

    Neither my older son nor myself wants to fight or spar with my younger son because of the pain techniques he uses; and yet, this said, my younger son thinks that judo and striking would have served him better while working in Russia.

    One other thing: the fights my younger son had in Russia had to do with rank and dominance, and so one did not have to worry about getting kicked in the head while rolling around on the ground.

    Nonetheless, his pain techniques that work so well here did not work for him there, and he found himself using a lot of wrestling moves, not to defeat his opponents, but to frustrate his opponents.

    My younger son has since remarked to me that he has a new appreciation for how much influence the cultural expectations of the combatants has on the fight.

    The video at the beginning of this thread does not portray a self-defense situation but, rather, a cat playing with a drunken mouse and then feeling sorry for the mouse.

    As for the pleading referred to in the original post, the cat pleaded with the drunken mouse so that the mouse would take the easy way out and the cat could go about his business.

    I didn’t see any self-defense, nor BJJ, nor anything I’d really call a martial art.

    Just a cat playing with a mouse.

  • 49 anon // Jul 30, 2010

    @Ken

    I would speculate that your sons situation has more to do with the institution where he works in than the country. I’m sure centers for troubled youth in or prisons would have the same types of people. Tough SOB’s that is. I’ve heard stories of hardened sober criminals here just walking through OC spray unphased, and that’s the absolute worst stuff I’ve ever been subjected to as far as pain goes.

    When I was a stupid immature grunt in the Marine Corps(only 2 years ago, I’m not that salty) we used to almost make a habit out of getting into fistfights with each other, Army cats from Fort Bragg, UNC frat boys, and the occasional bouncer. I’m not at all proud of this, but it did happen. In my experience, while pain sometimes worked to stop the fratboys, it rarely stopped fellow service members(Marines nor Army) and absolutely never put down a bouncer. I don’t really feel any of us military guys, myself included, are any tougher than the average person. We certainly aren’t hardened prisoners.

    I also boxed from ages 6-14, then I wrestled in highschool, and I got into BJJ and Muay Thai in off season 2003 when I was 16, and have persisted ever since (with the exception of hiatuses for long field ops and deployments). I have knocked one or two people out, but I never did it in less than 10 punches. One thing I will say for grappling is this, though a punch may not always reliably put some man out, a blood choke will render any man unconscious 99.99% of the time. Its a physiological impossibility not to pass out when the blood flow to your brain is non-existent. Its generally safer for the victim as well assuming the choker lets go once the chokee passes out. A followed through joint submission will also at the very least render a persons limb useless. Hyper extending the elbow, dislocating the shoulder and what not. I’m assuming that joint submissions are not an option for your son though. Given that he is employed in this place, and breaking a patients arm never looks good to a boss.

  • 50 Chris // Jul 31, 2010

    Anon, I only mentioned my own relevant experience because it directly contradicts your prior appeals to MMA authority figures. So are you for, or against speaking from personal experience?

    Recycled soundbites from martial arts celebrities do not constitute “evidence” or “proof” in my eyes, nor should they in yours. You are welcome to share your own experience, but I advise you against speculating on what is impossible, or against equating self-defense with MMA competition as you have done repeatedly. We are, or at least we were supposed to be, discussing self-defense here.

    Ken, if Mr. Beard is the cat and Mr. Tapout is the mouse, then what are the dozen bystanders, their aggressive potential, and their perceptions of the event unfolding in front of them? And what is the law?

  • 51 anon // Jul 31, 2010

    BJJ is plenty usefull for self defence. No martial art is perfect for it. But BJJ gives you more tools to use. If it didnt work at all then the bearded guy wouldnt have been the person on top. And I doubt the bearded guy would have focused on the drunk if his friends were in the row with him. If he had started hitting him instead of taking him to the ground and controling him he could have very well gotten an assault charge.

  • 52 Ken Cox // Jul 31, 2010

    Chris asked, “if Mr. Beard is the cat and Mr. Tapout is the mouse, then what are the dozen bystanders, their aggressive potential, and their perceptions of the event unfolding in front of them?”

    Well, let’s look at what we can see in the video.

    I see the drunken mouse’s friends as having abandoned him earlier, in disgust.

    As for the rest of the bystanders, both customers and employees, I see them laughing; and, I assume with some justification that the cat assessed the mood of the room before escalating the event to a comeuppance for the drunken mouse.

    I understand and appreciate Chris’s point, nonetheless.

    I wrote my previous post with the intent of bringing to light the significance of different styles as having personal relevance, and also to bring up the question of whether or not one should go to the ground in an uncontrolled public setting.

    My older son, the Judoka, who loves fighting from the ground, maintains that in a public self-defense situation he would not go to the ground.

    My younger son, the Bringer of Pain, justifies going to the ground in Russia by describing those fights as male dominance contests, in which each combatant seeks to define his place in the social pecking order, and therefore does not want interference from friends and allies.

    The physical event which we observe in the intro video does not represent self defense.

    The cat seems to have accurately assessed the mood of the room, and the drunken mouse learned a lesson.

    Otherwise, Chris makes a good point.

    Ground-fighting skills in a true self-defense situation should serve only to transition one through a transient ground situation and then back to one’s feet.

    And, as an aside, regarding an earlier comment about pain-tolerance and arm bars, the defender, if a reasonable person, must determine at the time the appropriateness or inappropriateness of breaking the aggressor’s arm.

    In a male dominance contest with hardened Russian youths, an arm bar becomes a temporary control and not a decider of the contest; unless the person applying the arm bar wants to “win” by breaking the arm and thus earn the enmity of everyone witnessing the contest.

    Interestingly, Kimura broke Helio Gracie’s arm and still Helio Gracie would not submit.

    Helio Gracie’s corner threw in the towel.

    I wonder what the thousands of Brazilians in attendance thought of Kimura breading Helio Gracie’s arm.

    In that specific context, the audience might have thought it fair and part of the understanding of both players that one of them might break the other’s arm.

    And, comparatively, in a real self-defense situation, breaking a drunk’s arm might get one arrested, depending on the community.

  • 53 anon // Jul 31, 2010

    @Chris

    I know I’m breaking my promise not to retort. Your last post was a little less belittling. I’m not the anon the posted earlier today, just to clear up possible misconceptions.

    I think you and I are misunderstanding each other. I never called anyone a master. I don’t think of Machida, Inosanto, or like people as masters. At least not in the TMA sense of the word. I don’t even train Karate or Jeet Kune Do. I don’t participate in the MMA(I still practice BJJ actively) scene anymore, as stated above. My beliefs don’t come from being a UFC fanboy, and Inosanto isn’t even a MMAist. Why would I look on them as all knowing “masters”? I would call them experts in their respective field though, but that’s my opinion. I don’t believe in putting anyone on a pedestal and idolizing them as the know everything about anything archetype of a “master”. They’re humans and thus fallible whether its Oyama, or Gracie. In fact I don’t think I said master, I said top level strikers. My point was to say that if these strikers who are probably lightyears ahead of you and I feel a need to train grappling at least to defend it, why shouldn’t you or I? I mean, I highly doubt either of us are as proficient strikers as them, so what would exclude us to their shortcomings? Sh*t, In the same line I think grapplers like myself should train standup to be proficient as well. I meant to con-notate it would be more dire to find yourself on the ground without any skills to get back to your feet, or any skills to avoid the takedown like the gentleman in your video. Not striking<grappling, nor that people need to go to the ground everytime they fight. I think people should try to be more woll rounded.

    I also didn't say One punch knockout, or one man prevailing over a group was impossible. I said it was highly improbable, and more based on external circumstances than your own abilites.

    This is a good lead into evidence. I would never accept someones stories of experience over the internet as evidence. Neither yours nor mine. For all we know either of us could be lying keyboard warriors. I said that providing evidence wouldn't do any good. I've had these arguments before, and promised myself I wouldn't get drawn into another one 4 threads & 6 months ago. No matter how many videos(best evidence I could present over the internet) I present on my arguments behalf. The other party shuns them with "i wuld have dun this this and this, that gui sux lololol"

    Let me give you an example.

    compare:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91j8M_I1t00&has_verified=1

    -and-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7xfL8lPUzM&feature=related

    -to-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIjG4OJEHnI&feature=player_embedded

    -and-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlslVhjBYCU&feature=related

    I'll give credit where credit is due. The guy in the first video was a tough SOB. He demonstrated great aggression and take down defense despite being seemingly untrained. The guy in the second video, obviously a boxer demonstrated great footwork, and use of obstacles never getting set in one place for too long. Bt the facts remain

    1. The opponents in the first video were reluctant to attack, and were below average fighters. They attacked separately, and were more akin to 3 guys attacking 1 guy than a group attacking 1 guy. If that makes any sense.

    2. The opponents in the second video were also below average fighter, way below average. They also attacked as individuals in a group rather than 1 cohesive team.

    *. Both videos were broken up by bystanders before anybody was decidedly out of the game(with the exception of the one man knocked out in the second.

    Now look at the second set of videos.

    3. In the first one not only is the black man twice as big as his 3 assailants. But, he shows good movement, is a much better fighter than any of the 3. he even knocks one man down, and I'm actually somewhat impressed with his performance given the circumstances and that he is conceivably untrained. Yet they moved as a group, there weren't a lot of obstacles to use, and they were at least average fighters for your untrained person. and were able to overwhelm him. He still wound up on the ground, without the idea of basic ground fighting, getting blasted. Had it not been for the bystanders this time he would he would have been in a lot of trouble.

    2. These are 2 cops with clubs vs 5 unarmed gang members. That's still only 2.5 each, they probably have at least some defensive tactics training, and they're armed. The gang members overwhelmed then attacking as "team". They were still taken to the ground, and still unable to get back up until bystanders intervened.

    If you claim to know a martial art or viable "answer" to deal with either of the last two situations, besides running or a handgun, I'll probably think your delusional. One thing you can't say however, is that having ground skills and takedown defense would be a bad thing in any of these(1 and 2 included) situations. In my experience this is how most multiple attacker scenarios go. Again, I don't expect you to accept my experience as truth over the internet.

    Have a good night..

  • 54 SenseiMattKlein // Aug 1, 2010

    Saw your videos anon and must say, it is amazing that people don’t fight dirtier when outnumbered. If I was the black guy or the police, I would be throwing knees, elbows, eye gouging, anything. Your life is at stake with that many people on you. Boxing skills are good but you need more firepower against multiple opponents. Think grappling has its place as well in actual fights.

  • 55 Ken Cox // Aug 1, 2010

    Anon posted a video showing a street fight in Turkey, in which a single boxer successfully defended himself (an understatement) against multiple attackers.

    Youtube has blocked some of the versions of this video, requiring one “join” Youtube in order to see this video.

    Below find links to alternate views of this fight:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8EEN5RkltY&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tv3LMNnkMg&feature=related

    If you can’t get past the censor without joining, bite the bullet and join.

    This video demonstrates that a competent boxer has the advantage in a self-defense street fight, even against multiple attackers.

    Please note the boxer’s use of movement and how he maintains proper distance with his hands.

    I have studied at a few schools that teach striking, and I have observed others, and I think beyond a doubt that western boxing provides the best form and most effective strikes of all the so-called martial arts.

    The only notably effective striking I have seen in a traditional dojo has come from a professional boxer who also taught BJJ and other similar forms; and, nonetheless, his ability to strike came from hundreds of hours of practice and study as a boxer.

    One can more easily teach a boxer to defend against takedowns than one can teach a grappler (who has a full cup) how to strike.

    Boxers can see the danger presented to them by takedowns, and boxers pay attention to training that teaches them defenses against takedowns; and,

    on the other side of the coin, many grapplers tend to dismiss the effectiveness of striking, and so they don’t pay attention to or value instruction in striking.

    With all respect, I think I can teach anyone on this forum how to strike harder with less effort than they ever thought possible; and, I can do it with a five minute read.

    A lot of “full cups” on this forum, and I suspect few would read what I have to say on this subject; but, if anyone has a sincere interest, let me know.

  • 56 Mohammad Khan // Aug 5, 2010

    Just wanted to add in after a long time that, Ken, by saying boxers have best striking and all that, you forget about parries (or blocks as they are officially called in karate). Boxing doesn’t teach you how to parry very well. In a situation without gloves, holding your hands like a boxer can cause you to get the full impact of the punch through your own hand if you go for a boxer’s block.

    I recommend for parry information http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-blocks-do-work.html

    Hell, i recommend http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/ fully for anyone who cares about martial arts. It really got me thinking.

  • 57 Anonimouse (lol) // Aug 5, 2010

    Mr Khan,

    First off this thread isn’t about boxing. I’m not scolding you, but we are getting sidetracked. Anon I think posted those videos not to highlight boxing’s strength, but rather to make a point about multiple opponents.

    You seem to not to understand boxing so I’ll give you a pass on the flaming. I’m assuming you’ve never boxed, correct? Anyway let me list the priorities(from most important to least) of boxing training in a very simplified form: 1. Footwork 2. Punches 3. Dodging 4. Blocking. When it comes to active defense in boxing the highest priority is not to be there ie. to move and counter, if you cant move then to dodge and counter, if you cant dodge then to block and counter. Blocking with the gloves in a boxing match takes away many countering opportunities. That said there are 2 major ways of blocking in boxing. The first is the “catch” slap or what we refer to as a “parry”. Its basically blocking straight and centerline punches with our palm by… well slapping or punching. The second which I believe you are referring to is “covering up” this may appear to involve the gloves but actually involves the bicep and forearm. For example to block a hook, act like you are throwing an upward elbow, the wrap your fingers around the place the back of your head meets the back of your neck, now try and close your forearm and bicep together. This is how you defend a hook to the head, if you try to hit your “cover up” with your other hand you wont be able to get your fist through, and it will set you up for a hook or cross of your own. It goes along with the idea of “staying tight”. Though technically different, philosophically boxing and wing chun are similar in that they both emphasize simultaneous attack and defense. If you want to learn more look up “Fighting Fit” by Al Lachica. He shows boxing techniques minus the gloves. There are a few rapidshare ebook downloads of it you can find on google, but I won’t tell you where for legal reasons(they’re not that hard to find).

    Have a great day

  • 58 Ken Cox // Aug 5, 2010

    Thanks to Mohammad for his observations.

    I don’t forget about parries.

    Many different schools of practice exist regarding parrying.

    I have talked about my younger and older son, and I have failed to mention my oldest son from a much earlier time in my life.

    When we last lived together, this oldest son practiced Shotokan Karate and he had some very graceful and fluid parries.

    I also lived in Okinawa for awhile, and I became aware that the label Karate covers many different styles and strategies, including a style that goes beyond parrying and turns parrying itself into a hard, aggressive attack.

    That said, professional boxing has many different styles, depending on the weight class and the individual boxer.

    When it comes to professional boxing and parrying, blocking and maneuvering, I would not feel comfortable making generalizations.

    However, when it comes to striking effectiveness, no other form devotes as much time and energy to striking with the fist as does professional Western boxing.

    Those who write about mastery say it takes 10,000 hours of practice in order to attain mastery, whether at the piano or at the heavy bag.

    Professional boxers spend more hours striking with the fist than anyone else of any discipline or style.

    Interestingly, many professional boxers remain unaware of the physical principles they have learned and which they apply.

    I see something similar amongst bicyclists, in which some bicyclists have a very effective “spin,” but they can’t put their spin into words.

    So, professional boxers parry, slip, block, feint and maneuver just like anyone else, but they hit harder, more accurately, and, depending on the weight class, with more frequency and quickness.

    Give a top ten contender middleweight a few hours of instruction in avoiding take downs, allow him to fight with taped hands, and he will prevail easily in the typical UFC, MMA or Pankration type of event.

    That said, I must also say that all martial arts correspond to a culture, and a competent visiting martial artist from a different culture has a distinct advantage in that he does not have the same subconscious cultural constraints as do the members of the visited culture.

    In other words, a “black belt” from culture A who visits martial arts culture B can easily see the cultural constraints the members of martial arts culture B subconsciously place upon themselves, and the black belt from A can violate the culture of B and prevail.

    For example, collegiate wrestlers who study Judo do very well for awhile, because of the subconscious expectations and “good behavior” of the Judoka; and, interestingly, though, the collegiate wrestler gradually joins the Judo culture and loses his advantage.

    I see that also in the various BJJ schools.

    My youngest son attends tournaments specifically in order to expose himself to other cultures, and, also, to reveal to himself his own expectations and cultural constraints.

    An interesting subject, to me, anyway.

  • 59 Anonimouse (lol) // Aug 5, 2010

    Ken,

    I think you are forgeting our footwork. To head something off at the pass many martial artists like to claim we don’t claim kicks and are therefore subpar. Similar to what you said with are punches being highly developed due to our great emphasis on 4 basic punches, our footwork is generally lightyears ahead of any other system. Look at it this way all that time most other striking styles spend on their kicks, elbows, knees, punches, open hand strikes, wristlocks and movement. We spend only on 4 punches and footwork. All that time they spend on 12-25(idk) blocks, 10-25(idk again) dodges, trapping, and whatnot we spend on 3 basic dodges(slip, fade, b&w) and 2 basic blocks. Now are there other techniques like feinting, shoulder blocks, and more advanced attacks like the overhand or shovel…yes. But these come later, are situational and our greatest strengths are our training methods and simplicity. Am I saying boxing is the end all be all of striking arts? NO, in fact because we don’t train kicks I’ve seen many a good boxer beat by average thai boxer due to a low roundhouse. We have no idea how to defend it at first, and it kills our legs, as stated legs are very important to a boxer. Leg kicks make us essentially a tank without treads. But underestimating a boxer or any other “sport fighter” just because you think you train for combat and they “train for the ring”, or because have “more weapons” than them could very easily be the end of you. Its interesting to note I’ve found “sport fighters” are more open to adapting techniques not found in their “system” while street fighting than combat stylist. I mean for example a style may teach groin kicks and throat strikes but not eyegouges. So a proponent of that style may strike the throat, kick the groin, but won’t stick his thumb in a eye or bite. I hypothisize he does this because he thinks his style is the end all be all of street combat. Whereas Ive known people who only box but would willingly kick someone in the nuts, punch them in the throat, bite, eye gouge pick up a weapon, bite, etc… Many of these people come from rough areas in SE DC, but I think they draw a clearer correlation between the ring and the street. I.e. they think of boxing as their base, but understand you can cheat in the street and go outside the confines of your system. I hypothesize they do this because the “sport” thing allows them to draw a clearer line, and gives them less scrupples when it comes to using techniques outside their system and fighting “dirty”.

  • 60 Anonimouse (lol) // Aug 5, 2010

    Yanking(not just grabbing) someones clothes or hair while punching them seems to be the another popular street technique these guys have shared with me. You dont really find that in many martial arts styles and ive never heard a martial artist reccomend it despite its effectiveness. just thought id share that

  • 61 Mohammad Khan // Aug 6, 2010

    You are right that we are getting off topic. However, I just wanted to make Ken realize that striking arts don’t just depend on the actual strikes, which was successful.

    To address dodging in self-defense, I recommend http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/06/evasion-vs-blocking-with-evasion.html

    To see how bare-handed boxing used blocks,
    http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-about-claytons-gap.html

  • 62 Anonimouse (lol) // Aug 6, 2010

    mohammed,

    No one said striking arts didn’t depend on just striking. you’re giving links to a karate guy who says boxing has shit defense…so what, why do I care if some karate guy thinks boxings defense sucks and points out nonexistant flaws because he has doesnt understand the style. i can point to a ton of boxing coaches who think karate/kungfu/whatev defense/offense sucks too because they dont understand the style. boxing defense, at least upper body defense is just as effective as art, its just different. you have a difference of opinion and thats fine but it doesnt mean you or that “sensei” you linked is right. tons of people have used boxing blocks parries and dodges in mma where the gloves offered no extra protection. in fact its the predominant way mma fighters train to defend strikes directed at the upper body. guess what-it works. thats not to say karate wont work, thats to say boxing is (at least) just as effective in a different matter

  • 63 Ken Cox // Aug 6, 2010

    With all respect, Mohammad didn’t make me “realize” anything.

    I think we’ve had a miscommunication.

    I can live with miscommunication.

  • 64 Mohammad Khan // Aug 6, 2010

    Alright, Ken, I agree that we had miscommunication. I’m sorry for being pretentious.

    Anonymous… he’s not a sensei of mine. I don’t know him at all. I just read a few of his articles and they made sense to me. He just recently got an award for best martial arts blogger you could learn from. I don’t know who gave it to him, but as far as I had seen, he deserved it. I’m not saying boxing has shit defense, and neither is he. He said that in old style boxing, before gloves, there was much use of karate-ish blocks, and he provided some evidence of that. He also gave reasons for how gloves changed the sport using physics arguments, and he argued for the use of blocks with evasions in self-defense, not just evasion so that you may be able to have several lines of defense. He also said that, in a self-defense situation, you might find yourself in a crowded or claustrophobic area where doing an evasion might cause you to hit your head on a wall, so he advocated learning blocks AS WELL. If you read some of his other articles to do with boxing, you would find that he greatly respects boxing punches, and showed, through physics and biomechanics, that a great difference between boxing and karate punches was the role of gloves in the fight, and of the intent- boxing intent being to hit and win, karate intent being to not get hit and to run.

    I link to him because increasing knowledge might help in pursuing martial arts (yes, including boxing) and everyone can decide for themselves how much they agree with that resource.

  • 65 Zara // Aug 17, 2010

    @Ronin:

    BJJ being taught to the army or even the marines has little to do with self defense for the common citizen and hence is not viable proof for your claim: soldiers nearly always have buddies with them to help them out (ordinary citizens regularly are confronted with multiple opponents or are left to fend for themselves unarmed vs armed, something BJJ just doesn’t teach: if your club does it took it from another art or style) and unarmed combat has become almost obsolete or at least very rare in modern warfare since firepower wins the day, not h2h. Because of this and the nature of peace-keeping missions (takedown and control over incapacitate and destroy), as well as keeping men physically fight and willing to fight without releasing killers into society (a soldier trained to kill with his bare hands is a serious liability in anything but all out warfare or fight to the death SD) BJJ was chosen for the unarmed program and not because BJJ is necessarily great at self defense.

    As to cops receiving training in BJJ: again it’s not comparable to the type of situation an ordinary citizen is likely to face. Cops work in pairs and they have batons, pepper-spray, tasers and firearms for when things get really hairy. If they can it’s their duty to refrain from excessive violence and in a lot of situations taking someone down and controlling him prior to cuffing is entirely appropriate. However when faced with multiple people or an armed perp cops will likely pull their firearm since they know it’s quite crazy to try to wrestle & go for the submission. In this respect the BJJ strategy is fairly suicidal and you need other approaches and tools to survive, ask anyone experienced in real and serious violence (especially those who’s job it is to deal with the scum of society on a daily basis: cops, prison guards, bouncers…). 1-on-1 BJJ and especially MMA is great, especially when it’s a sanctioned duel, but on the street you never know what you’re going to run into and I’d rather not get booted in the head or knifed between the ribs.

    I’m sorry but your argument doesn’t hold water and you contributed little to this discussion.

    Zara

    PS: what’s the standard BJJ defense for knife/stick/gun violence? An art that doesn’t deal with weapons is by definition not well suited to SD since criminals and hotheads are known to employ everything they can in order to win. The video doesn’t prove anything: if your idea of real violence is this sorry excuse for a fight you’re sadly mistaken and you should do some research into the sick shit people do to each other out there, perhaps it’ll make you think twice about your outrageous claims. Sure, nothing is ever guaranteed and even the best SD training can fail but I’d like to increase my odds of surviving bad situations by as much as possible and BJJ is definitely not the answer, with all due respect to its competitors, teachers and students.

  • 66 Zara // Aug 17, 2010

    @CJ: you’re talking out of your ass. Let me show you why using your own words, not my inference.

    “Sorry if I don’t take self defense comments to seriously from a bunch of guys on a website about taiji for health and some lame 80’s ninja rap with a pencil wushu guy and a bunch of back acting 10 year olds.”

    Ad hominem argument: you don’t know any of these people here so what you’re saying exists only in your imagination, not to mention it’s ridiculous and rather offensive.

    “Yeah, you need to be aware of people with friends and knives and all that mess.”

    That’s just the problem: a lot of times you don’t know so it’s better to be safe than sorry, diving to the ground with the original attacker is a great way to find out… Only you could get killed or handicapped if things take a turn for the worst. This is why staying on one’s feet is the best course of action in any case, exactly the opposite of what BJJ advocates. Just so you know: a lot of people have friends and carry knives these days, especially the violent/criminal elements. Good luck with your BJJ, MMA or whatever it is you do but don’t confuse it with real SD.

    “That said, he was able to deal with his one man, more than most karate/kungfu/TKD/etc people can pull off.”

    Most martial artists of any style could have taken this guy since he’s obviously drunk and incompetent. How on earth is your claim even remotely likely to be true? Insults and assumptions do not equal arguments.

    “As to BJJ, the same moves that work in a ring work on a street. What you think would happen to his shoulder or elbow had he jerked it without concern?”

    Nobody here claimed locks don’t work, you’re arguing beside the point. Sure: you can defeat a man using BJJ but it doesn’t deal with variables that are vital to SD: weapons and multiple opponents. Hence it’s not great for SD (i.e anything outside a 1-on-1 sanctioned dueling type of situation), the claim that it ‘sucks’ at it is a bit too far fetched but the blogger has a good point. You don’t.

    The only thing you’ve proven here is that you’re not very bright and quite aggressive to boot. Should get you far in your quest to become the next BJJ or MMA champ. I don’t care about meaningless titles or ego: I care about going home safely and enjoying life and the other benefits my training brings me.

  • 67 Johyn // Oct 2, 2010

    Fights are up, fights are down. To succeed, train both.

    I am a father of three, brown belt in BJJ (10 years) and muay thai afficionado (6 yrs) . Without a doubt, the BJJ techniques I have learned and the BJJ training my 7-year old yellow belt daughter is receiving are fundamental for self defense — rock, paper,scissor, knife, or otherwise.

    That being said, the bearded guy failed in the most important self defense technique of all — just keep your mouth shut!

  • 68 Killer // Nov 6, 2010

    The original poster is an idiot. I would love to know what he thinks would be a more valid form of self defense than BJJ…I watched this video months ago and I can tell that the so called BJJ practitioner was not very experienced and should have just let the fat drunkard go. That being said, Gracie Jiu Jitsu is a self defense method first and a sport second. It was developed for street fighting by a family of men who had more real (street and vale tudo) fights before their 20th birthday than many people on this forum could have in a life time, if they tried. GJJ is the single most effective and realistic system of self defense that I have been privy to…Everyone always talks about multiple attackers, knives, etc…but, how well would your karate, TKD, Kung fu, RBSD, etc actually protect you from the same scenarios that BJJ has trouble with. Throw a knife or a gun or multiple attackers into the mix and anybody is going to have trouble.

    For what it’s worth, I’ll certainly keep training Gracie Jiu Jitsu, learning what conflict and aggression feels like, sparring, training, and practicing self defense moves….the non believers can keep pajama dancing.

  • 69 Killer // Nov 6, 2010

    Also, Zara…You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Go find a jiu jitsu school…a legit one…and ask about self defense.

    Check out the Gracie Academy at Torrance, or Saulo Ribiero’s Jiu Jitsu Univesity, or Pedro Sauer, or Alliance, or any team…self defense is key…but we all must be realistic. You can’t expect a martial arts move to magically save your life against six grown men, or guys with guns or knives… No martial art in the world is going to save you from the Hell’s Angels if they decide they want to stomp you.

    In my estimation, most martial arts don’t effectively prepare you for one attacker, none the less multiple weapon wielding attackers.

  • 70 Pete // Dec 5, 2010

    A couple of observations.

    Fat man needs underwear. Nothing more embarrassing than being physically dominated by a man in a bad beard while drunk and waiting for your dinner. Except being physically dominated by a man in a bad beard while drunk and waiting for your dinner with no underpants on.

    Secondly, the dude’s BJJ is not that crash hot, but it is an example of how rudimentary BJJ training can dominate someone with little skill/massive belly/ no manners/ underpants

    The third is don’t pick fights with people and then put it on you tube or people will pull it apart and theorize over it like its a work of shakespeare when really its some half nude burger joint bad beard wrestle fest.

  • 71 Christopher // Feb 23, 2011

    Im sorry but anyone to say BJJ is not a good self defense style, obviously does katas, and thinks chops will work….

    I have studied many styles, stand up and ground work. If a fight ensued i would 1) leave.
    2) drive away.
    3) if at all costs had to fight, stand up and bang, but considering most fights (80%) wind up on teh ground. how is your style if it is not a ground art going to save you when, like as you mentioned mounts you and rains down punches on your face. The ONLY way out of that is 1) bench press the guy and unless he is tattoo from love boat.> GOOD luck. 2) use some sort of wrestling, bjj pin escape.

    lastly BJJ has a major advantage over most other styles. with the exception of judo and aikido. It is one of the few styles that you train every day, with a full 100% resisting opponent going 100% of their pace. in boxing if you spared every day full force, you wouldn’t be able to box too long. you would have no sparing partners because they would all be hurt and you would actually be in a real fight. BJJ is probably one of the most if not THE most effective martial art for self defense. Of course a punch is a punch and if i had to opt i would opt to punch and kick but if need be take it to the ground where MOST people don’t know the first thing about. EVERYONE including my little nephew knows how to throw a haymaker.

    watch the gracies brazlian jiu jitsu in action, they challange tons of other styles to see what is the most effective. I would go to say that most blue belts of bjj, could if gotten past most black belts stand up defense take him down and punish him.

  • 72 azmirais // Mar 10, 2011

    thats a standard takedown and a kesagatami, also found in judo. the fights wasnt dirty enough. the redneck wasnt proficient in fighting. took too long anyway

  • 73 Nate Dogg tha Aftalife // Mar 17, 2011

    I’ve wrestled since before I hit puberty and I’ve been doing BJJ since after my college wrestling days (not to give away my age but I graduated from college in ’03).

    The best self-defense is keeping your mouth shut (and your girlfriend’s) and not giving people a reason to attack you (like wearing all your ice and your best Js around when you go out at night). If you’ve done these two things, the next best thing is running like a punk when you even suspect that 2 or more people are coming at you, or even one person has some sort of weapon. This is real self-defense.

    I love and will always love BJJ and wrestling, but there is nobody that can convince me that defending my “honor” against some drunk dude with a knife and all his boys will make me do anything but save my ass (and if my girl is talking junk like the guy earlier was talking about then I will leave her to defend herself and find a new friend… I don’t put up with s***-talking b***es and I keep it real).

    That being said, if there’s ONE, single, person who hasn’t cried uncle in a while and is itching to do so, I’d be more than happy to oblige them. There is nothing worse than fighting a one-on-one street fight (no weapons involved) with someone who can take you down and avoid any kind of submissions and embarrass you. But how often does this happen?

    Almost never. There are other things to consider, like other people.

    On the other hand, how often do you get involved in an unprovoked street fight with a crap-load of dudes who have stuff to cut or shoot you with? If you pay attention to my first two rules, then also almost never.

    All in all, if a pack of wild, Miller Lite-breathing rednecks hunts me down and tries to kill me with primitive weapons, I would be glad that I spent almost 20 years learning how to dominate people on the ground and breaking arms in real life rather than doing katas, learning self-defense from a fat guy with a flat top, or any other crap that isn’t going to work anyway.

    When in doubt, dial 911. That’s what society has evolved to. So adapt or die out.

  • 74 james // Apr 20, 2011

    Bjj is useless in real self defence. the fat mans friend couldve easily smashed the bearded fellows head in while he was on the ground. So after you get the guy into an armlock, what are you gonna do? he taps out, do you let him back up? bjj is a sport, good for mma. But in real fights, muay thai, and krav maga wins every time. a kick boxer would just knock the guy out with a swift jab and a uppercut. done

  • 75 Jason // May 6, 2011

    I came across this discussion and thought I’d add my two cents worth. First…my resume. I have studied martial arts all my life. I am a 1′st Dan in Hapkido (trained in Korea) and I am currently training to be a Muay Thai instructor in Bangkok Thailand. As well I have studied Korean Takgeyon (two years), Judo (three years), and Gracie Jiu Jitsu (3 years).
    ALL and I mean ALL martial arts are viable for self defense. Even berated styles like Tae Kwon Do will add great moves to your repetoire, and give you conditioning that will help your overall performance.
    What martial art is best will inevitably depend on the situation. I personally don’t think that the BJJ guy in the vid did anything wrong. No one was seriously hurt and for all practical purposes everyone walked away the better (at least I hope so).
    For all the people on here who are calling the guy amatuerish and “not a great BJJ guy” well, there is a difference between a real fight and an MMA fight that has a referee and whose participants have trained for, for several weeks. I’ve seen lots of real fights in my day and they are unrehearsed, messy, and generally don’t conclude after 30 minutes of a guy holding off his opponent in the gaurd. Lots of unexpected stuff can happen (slippery floors, hard obkects like chairs, tables, and lets not forget an unpadded concrete or tiled floor). Also, untrained opponents can suprisingly pull off great moves like stepping on and fracturing your toes, obliviously “kicking” you in the groin as their foot flails wildly. So in short, don’t expect an impromptu brawl in the lobby of the local IHOP to remotely resemble last nights championship UFC bout.
    One person brought up the military, specifically the Marines and BJJ training. While it’s true that both the Marines and the US Army have training programs that include BJJ as well as Muay Thai training, this has much more to do with the Gracie family’s clever marketing than anything else. First off, it is not the job or primary focus of the US military to train people in bar room brawlling. Soldiers train to kill people primarily with weapons and if a fight on the battlefield goes hand to hand (a very unlikely scenario in todays world) something went very wrong somewhere. I know soldiers who train in these methods and I can attest to the fact that the training is very rudimentary. These guys might be able to keep themselves from getting their throats slit in a fight in some foreign bar but there’s no way on God’s green earth that, with their current training, they could step into the ring and beat even an amaturish trained fighter in their respective style.
    While we are on the subject of the US military, anyone who has been overseas within earshot of a US base knows that US soldiers travel in large packs. They do this mostly for security. And if you take on one of them you’re going to have the rest of the platoon jumping in to “lend a hand”. Not exactly the kind of situation in which I’d want to try out my groundfighting skills.
    Most of the BJJ hate comes not from the real guys of the sport but the douche bag wanna groupies who can barely afford a month or so lessons, and then swagger about claiming that it’s some kind of unbeatable art.
    Watching grappling videos and getting your arse handed to you on the mat are polar opposites my gentle readers. I remember reeling from a well placed spinning back kick while sparring a Tae Kwon Do guy years back.
    BJJ nor Muay Thai or anything else is the have all – end all to fighting and no matter what you study you can only hope that if the time comes to use it that it works well for you for as I pointed out earlier – REAL fights can be a REAL beotch.

  • 76 Alan // May 6, 2011

    @Jason…

    Brian Stann, MCMAP Blackbelt who was the WEC LHeavyweight Champion. Current UFC contender although he has had to take his training further

    MCMAP(Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) isn’t really based off BJJ, although apparently the Army’s MACP(Modern Army Combatives Program) is.

    The best way to explain MCMAP is sort of a happy medium between Krav Maga and MMA 101 with some mellee weapons thrown in for good measure. It has some basic BJJ in it, but it also has abotu 12 other styles.

    One of the main differences between the combatives of the past in the Marine Corps and MCMAP is that the latter is meant to be continuously trained through out a Marines career as a regular part of PT, while the former was mainly a boot camp crash course. Now that may differ from unit to unit, my unit practiced on average 2-4 hours a week and it was very alive training. But the program does cause a lot of injuries to Marines and many commanders are apprehensive to train regularly as they are suspossed to by Marine Corps Order, if they do they do it in a very half assed static manner which lacks aliveness maybe 2 weeks a year just to put a “check in the box” .

    As a result you see a lot of “Tan Belt Ninjas running around”(Tan belt is the first rank you get in boot followed by grey, green, brown, and black) who would be about equivalent to a 3 month white belt. I assure you brown & blacks are nothing to be trifled with. I’ll grant you it’s still not too advanced even at that level but its a solid system that compares favorably to Krav Maga or Combat Sambo, and generally the practitioner is going to be a Marine in good shape pissed off by putting up with 4+ years of the USMC’s BS.

    Sorry, to get off topic but I got to defend my beloved Corps. For comparison I am also a BJJ purple belt under Robson Moura, a current Krav Maga practitioner, a Nidan in Goju-Ryu(retired) and a former amateur boxer and high school wrestler back in the day . Just blowing smoke up your ass without any real MA’s experience to back it up.

  • 77 Jason // May 7, 2011

    Alan, I wasn’t trying to denigrate the Marines. I know and have talked to Marines, Army, and Navy Seals about their h2h combat training and they all tell me the same thing – that it’s not a integral part of their overall training. The Seals I have talked to say that many of the men train privatley in martial arts (Wing Chun seemes to be popular), but the Navy doesn’t effectively train them to be martial arts masters.
    I was simply responding to the poster who suggested that since BJJ was used by the Marines/Army that it was somehow a testement to it’s effectiveness. Which on the one hand could be plausible were it not for my knowledge of the shrewdness of Gracie marketing.
    In it’s own right, BJJ is effective but no so much as any other martial art in perspective because as has been pointed out by myself and others, in certain situations it would gaurantee certain defeat.
    Back in the early days of MMA the Gracies designed the UFC to be a tournament favorable to grapplers where the grapplers would win.
    There were lots of people looking at Ninjutsu, Pencak Silat, Lima lama and other stylists and saying “Wow! Those guys suck! BJJ is the best man!” without taking into consideration that for all it’s non-limitations and being closer to reality, that it was not a streetfight or what could be expected in a real life encounter. How many people train for weeks and head down to the local pub and get into a brawl? Most of the time it happens suddenly without warning. No time to mentally prepare yourself as tournament fighters do. An opponent in a real life encounter will be looking to debilitate you as quickly as possible not merely trying to use his skill to subdue you. It’s going to be quick and hyper adrenalized due to the uncertain nature of the end (no referee to force a fight stoppage).
    I realize that there are probably some really hardcore guys in the Marines as well as the other branches of service but you can’t really make an accurate assessment of the effectiveness of a style based on the handful of bad asses it produces. There are always 15 students in any Korean Tae Kwon Do dojang who can’t fight their way out of a paper bag, but two that can kick you in the face before you can blink.
    What I have always taken issue with is the old claim that started with companies like TRS (Tactical Response Solutions) which was selling the Jerry Peterson SCARS system that claimed after watching their tapes and doing the moves that you could take out a martial artist with years of experience on you. Now you and I both know that’s a load of crap, but the BJJ crowd seemed to pick up on it and there are no shortage of groupies on any MMA forum who float similar claims each day – hence all the anti-BJJ media.
    I will be the first to admit that a person can watch some grappling tapes and learn a few moves that will end up being effective on some schmuck who doesn’t know anything, but against a fighter with marginal training it’s going to be useless. Same with a BJJ guy with a few months of training. Back in the day it was possible to take the stand up fighters by suprise but nowadays most have incorporated some anti grappling into their arsenals or done some serious grappling on the side. In summation BJJ nor another martial art is not going to be a “silver bullet” which trumps years of training in another style – only in the minds of teenage wanna be’s.
    Again I am not trying to degrade the honorable men and women in our military who put their lives on the line everyday for freedom and our way of life. But even training two or three times a week in their respective stlyes they would be no match for a seasoned Muay Thai fighter in the ring on his terms or a BJJ player in an MMA fight. Likewise we’d be toast on the battlefield.

  • 78 Alan // May 8, 2011

    @Jason

    Just to clear this up I was an 0311(Infantry) and MCMAP brown belt level instructor with 1st battalion-2nd Marines when I was enlisted from 04-08. So I have it on good authority(my own) that it is a regular focus in some units. Like I said some units don’t like it because it injures Marines. That said its a good well rounded program, similar(although developed autonomously) to Krav Maga. Not incredibly deep but solid basics of Striking, Grappling, Self Defense, and Weapons, i.e. the stuff you will actually use in self defense…the basics. Very little BJJ actually from what I saw, the grappling was more Judo based. If rank wasn’t a requirement for belt advancement the minimum time it would take to achieve black belt training 3 hours a week would be exactly 1 year. Like I said basic but still WAY more in depth than what was trained prior to when it was instituted in 2002.

    The SEALs don’t really train too much hand to hand after their initial training from what I understand. Don’t know why, but apparently they don’t.

    H2H in the military is more like a type of PT that builds confidence and might save a few Marines or soldiers life once in a entire war. Its not really a focus in that regard as far as training, its more a part of our PT.

    Also bear in mind both the army’s and our programs weren’t instituted until 2001/2002 and weren’t widespread until about 2004/2005ish so depending on the dates of enlistment to those you talked to they may not have really been exposed to them.

    I have to disagree with the importance you place on training in martial arts and self defense. While I will say training and skill is very important, a little more so than even conditioning and strength, mindset trumps all IMO. You put a smaller, untrained little guy with an aggressive pitbull like mindset against a bigger well trained guy who’s timid, and I’ll put my money on the little aggressive SOB every day of the week.

    Will a MCMAP guy beat a thai fighter in standup or a BJJ/Judo guy grappling. No. But because it is a hybrid style it has been used successfully to a high level in MMA, see Brian Stann. Granted when he made the transition from WEC to UFC he had to seek out additional striking and grappling training, and granted he is an abnormal physical specimen(Former Naval Academy Football). But light heavyweight champ of the WEC with only MCMAP is nothing to shake a stick at. It shows how effective the style can be, especially considering it also has weapons and competition illegal techniques.

    I can’t comment on Silat, I know nothing about it. My feeling is any style can be effective as long as it is regularly trained full contact with aliveness.

    As for BJJ in the military, the people above you are half wrong, only the army’s program is deeply based on BJJ. Their program seems more of a inter unit competition/teambuilding thing only though. I guess they pretty much tell their soldiers that “the guy who wins a H2H conflict in war is whoevers friends show up first with a gun.” Not exactly untrue, but it illustrates the difference of the mentality the army tries to instill.

  • 79 Alan // May 8, 2011

    When you say certain situations would guarantee defeat in regards to BJJ I assume you are talking about multiple opponents or weapons. While going to the ground may make you more susceptible to defeat, I think those situations will assure just about any unarmed person of defeat. Some strategies maybe quicker than others, but sooner or later your going to get caught regardless in these scenarios (probably withing about 60 seconds top) regardless of who you are, how long you’ve study, or what style you’ve studied.

    Your best option is to run or improvise a weapon. That said training a grappling style regularly(not just BJJ) isn’t a bad idea for such things. Knowing how to handle yourself on the ground and get back to your feet if one of your assailants takes you down may mean the difference between life and death.

  • 80 Jason // May 8, 2011

    @ Alan
    Yes I was referring ot multiple opponents not specifically to weapons but that would be a bad scenario as well. Nowadays, multiple opponents are almost a given, even if it is the psycho girlfriend.
    Thanks for elaborating on the MCMAP. I really don’t know a great deal about it but it sounds like a pretty solid setup. What you described about the Army’s is pretty much in line with what the guys I know relayed to me. Of course they thought it was cutting edge and super awesome but I know every Thai boxing move and then some and I can tell you that it’s no brainer stuff. Most of the time it’s taught by some NCO who is a pedigreed Karate guy who attended a seminar somewhere.
    I hope you didn’t misunderstand me. I wasn’t trying to discourage anyone from doing ground fighting. I have trained a combined 6 years in Judo and BJJ. If I could only study one for h2h combat purposes it would be Judo because personally I feel that Judo is more street effective while BJJ will usually dominate in MMA and a controlled sports environment. Both will give you valuable insight on your ground game which any fighter should have. When I studied Gracie JJ the whole focus was basically suckering your opponent into taking you down ( the BJJ takedowns are pretty lame) and working him a-la Royce. And I am well aware that BJJ is constantly “evolving” but that in itself doesn’t negate the fact that grappling on a hard surface sucks.
    Although there was plenty of ne waza focus in Judo the ground was not emphasized above all and we were taught as many standup holds and “finishing throws”as the former.
    As for the fighting mindset, of course it works, but I’ve observed lots of fights in Korea where one opponent (usually western) went werewolf all over the K – dude, and the K-dude just calmly knocked him flat.
    In Muay Thai if you get a guy who goes balls to the wall they usually burn themselves out by the third round and are easy pickings. I realize that it works but people with high levels of skill wil be able to control you regardless.
    Again thanks for all the info on the MCMAP. At least I can discuss it with a little more background now.

  • 81 nsx91 // May 31, 2011

    The OP i s clueless. Let me guess, you’re a Traditional Martial Artist who’s butt-hurt b/c everyone is flocking to MMA to learn BJJ & MT while only you and about 3 other old farts who’s left at your dojo? This BJJ is a noob and does not represent all of BJJ. Your TMA bullsh.t is what? Some wrist lock or quick strike to the throat, etc? What’s the difference in a court of law?

  • 82 Vanarra // Jun 2, 2011

    Traditional martial arts bullshit? Well, I fight Muay Thai professionally in Bangkok and I have trained in traditional martial arts (1st Dan Hapkido). My traditional martial arts training was just as brutal and effective as MT.
    Also, I once saw two BJJ blackbelts fight (match) and one got knocked out by a flailing knee to the temple. The guy on the tape might just be unprepared or feeling a but stiff. I’ve had three years of BJJ training and I probably wouldn’t look much better. It’s always interesting to note how on the one hand some will claim that a fighter with a little BJJ can whoop any other style but when one of them seemingly fails to measure up to the bar then “they aren’t a reall BJJ guy” or something.

  • 83 Observer // Jun 4, 2011

    Hhhhhmmmm , perhaps a pair of hipwaders are required , though certain folks bring some clarity and reality to this debate.

    Firstly , I find the monday morning quarterbacking as regards the ” Beard Guy’s” handling of the whole episode rather laughable , none of us was there , perhaps yes it could have been avoided but all in all he handled it quite nicely , nobody got hurt , nobody got busted. It was quite obvious that bystanders weren’t going to be a problem. Me …well I’d have quite likely lit his ass up first and then threw him , but then I’m a curmudgeonly old man.

    Secondly , lets address the ‘defiencies’ that folks claim as regards BJJ in general , if you are of the mind that they *have* to go to the ground then you might want to correct that , what it *is* is a permutation of the old combat rough and tumble form of Judo. As regards locks , does anyone really think that a decent practitioner can’t transition to the *BREAK* , a process which is of course common in certain true Ju-Jitsu , AikiJujutsu and Koppojutsu systems. So how is BJJ any less effective I ask.

    Thirdly …and conversely , there seems to be some delusions about strikes in a street environment running through this arguement.

    A dose of reality for some of you folks , if you get tagged up by a good combo on the street by anyone who knows how to hit , much less start taking knees , elbows and Thai style cut kicks and shin kicks.

    A further reality , a key one and in point of fact a very basic truth ****if you do not train in an alive and resistive manner your technique may well be useless when put to the test******

    Do I need to repeat that , I sincerely hope not. An average *sparring partner* in a kickboxing or boxing gym can tear peoples heads off in a street confrontation , a good Judo player will slam an assailant so damn hard that his ancestors wake up and wonder what happened , the FMA guys will hit you twenty times and *then* throw you , good jujitsu or combat judo folks will throw you and hold on to an arm in hopes it comes off to take home for dinner , Thai style fighters will make your head spin like Linda Blair with elbows and break all your ribs with knees.

    My point being that the individual fighter makes the style and training methods make the fighter.

    A good defense instructor will put enough pressure on the student through drills that when technique degrades in the crucible of the street , and YES it will , hopefully there will be enough left in muscle memory to carry them through.

    Crosstraining has become necessary in the current ennviroment , train for what you may face , since BBJ and MMA ( no disrepect intended to either) are the fad currently it well behooves one to train to face an individual with training in either one.

    In the 70′s it was the TKD and Wing Chun craze , but there *were* adherents of both who could flat just kick the s*** out of you , especially on the West Coast , and then as goes TKD the original blood and guts teeth on the mat version brought to Texas and to D.C. by Jhoon Rhee.

    But the seventies are now gone , along with the time wherein you could actually go out and find out what worked , nowadays one would become subject to extensive litigation.

    As goes defensive tactics , keep it simple and train whatever you choose in as realistic a manner as possible.

    There’s good reason why I start beginners with basic FMA style footwork , boxing style hands and low line kicks , elbows and knees robbed from the Thai and FMA arts , along with basic standing locks that lead to entry for basic judo throws reaps and sweeps , the ground emphasis is that if you must go to the ground for any reason you are to do as much damage as possible while *getting back on your feet*.

    In closing , to those who slag off the socalled “traditional arts” , there are practitioners of same who train in an alive manner who are very , very good. The current scene with MMA *is* a descendant of those arts after all , now is it not…….

  • 84 Jonathan // Jul 14, 2011

    From the part of the video we see the bearded guy diffused the situation fine. And that was some weak BJJ, all he did was go for an Americana over and over and wasn’t even good at that.

  • 85 Mark Wilson // Jul 16, 2011

    First of all grappling in general can be effective in a street fight but it depends on the mindset taught. Now I am using grappling as a general term to describe grabbing pushing and pulling etc. This can include Judo, BJJ etc.

    The problem many run into is the mindset that they were trained under. Many martial arts schools train for the ring, they train against a single opponent, no weapons etc.

    If the techniques used were applied with a street mentality you may see those tools used in a different manner. For instance in the above video you may have seen a standing arm bar instead of the techniques applied.

    There is a stand up game to grappling but from what I have experienced and observed is that most trained fighters will take it to the ground.

    As far as Army Combatives go, that program was built based on what soldiers were facing on the battle field. According to Matt Larsen who created MACP (Modern Army Combatives Program.) Techniques from BJJ were used because they are very easy to learn and to teach. The combatives program is based on lessons learned from the battle field. This is me paraphrasing what he said but if you want you can watch the interview here:

    http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/self-defense-training/combatives/matt-larsen-does-macp-include-too-much-bjj/

    It is pretty obvious that the Army isn’t trying to make a well rounded fighter right away. Their intent is to train the soldier on what they are most likely to need with the small amount of time that they have.

  • 86 Vanarra // Jul 16, 2011

    Mark, I still say that (knowing the way the Gracie bunch markets things) thier influence had lots to do with the Army deciding to teach BJJ to the troops. If you look at martial arts that evolved from battlefield hand to hand (such as Xingyiquan) you can see the difference immediately. Very little if any groundfighting. Now I have to admit you must teach some but how many times on any BJJ tape or demo have you seen anyone training in a stand up position? Other than the Rorion Gacie “Street Self Defense” vidoes, it’s all on the ground and that’s what you see if you ever have the privledge of partaking in any Gracie corporate training (which I have).
    Back in the day the Gracies were pushing the “90% of all fights go to the ground” statistic. Well, first off, in Brazilian culture the term 90% is thrown out just about anytime you have a recognizable majority. Secondly the statistics were taken from LAPD stats which did show that most (not 90% though) of all police encounters that got physcal ended up on the pavement. But lets take into consideration for a moment that a ploice encounter generally ends up with the assailant getting handcuffed and more often than not more than one officer is involved. It’s much more sensible and efficient to let gravity do half the work until your prisoner is properly restrained. Casual civilians and Army guys (barring MPs) generally aren’t packing restraining devices. Grappling is about control. Trust me I know well the Gracie methods. As pointed out earlier, once you get that control your faced with the dilemna of where to go with it. When you’re on the ground you’ve forfeighted most of your striking options or at least those with any potentially debilitating results. The argument that grappling control is crucial to battlefield tactics seems weak in that same question of what should the soldier do when he has successfully armbarred or leg locked his foe considering there’s similar fighting, some with weapons happening all around him. Also soldiers are equipped with lots of armor, flak vests, and a utility belt which surely complicates the ground situation. the whole Gracie method is basically summed up as suckering or allowing the fight to go turf level and then working from there to subdue your opponent. In a matter of an enconter that occurs in a bar somewhere where no weapons are involved I would say that it has some merit as does training in basic grappling in general for any fight. But to suggest that a great tactic for battlefield hand to hand is to go horizontal seems a bit stupid when taken into account thats where most if not all Gracie ispired fights end up.

  • 87 Marine Grunt // Jul 17, 2011

    You know Vanarra I thought you and I shared one mind on this subject until you got to the part about military styles. Thing is if you look at military styles striking only became prevalent when armor stopped being used. When armor was in heavy use grappling was the primary name of the game. For example the Knights and Greco-Roman troops trained wrestling while the samurai trained classical jujutsu.

    Now with the advent of SAPI plates, or rather large ceramic armor inserts meant to stop assault weapon bullets weighing 10-15 lbs each, we have gone back to armored warfare in the last 20 years. The problem in focusing on striking with such gear is two fold.

    1. The first problem is if the enemy is wearing a vest with SAPI inserts and a helmet. There are very few places you can strike such a person and cause harm (except to yourself). While the people we are fighting now don’t were SAPIs most militaries in developing nations and developed nations do. Including hostile ones like Iran.

    2. The second problem is weight. We wear 4 plates: 2 15 lbs ones in the front and back and 2 10 lbs plates in our side. Add helmets, weapons, ammo, daypack, etc… at a bear minimum and your looking at at least 80lbs(same as a knight or samurais armor). With that much weight its actually a lot easier to just tackle the guy and hold him down while your buddy comes up to put two in his head, or so you can stab him than it is to shuck and jive throwing strikes with him. If you want to test this go buy an 80lbs weight vest and try working a heavy bag, then imagine if instead of a compact vest some of that weight included things like a slung rifle or a day pack.

    On all other issues I agree though. There was an independent
    study where someone actually examined 300 fight videos and his conclusion was only 42% of fights hit the ground with both people, while only 72% one person hits the ground either by being knocked down or tripping/slipping. Thats a large enough number that I feel grappling should be a serious and consistent focus of training, but not large enough that it should be the only focus. Cross training is key here.

    I do also reject the saying that 90% of fights involve weapons or multiple attackers and you should never go to the ground. For instance if your attacked by a much bigger guy or better striker who’s obviously alone and unarmed taking him to the ground is a decent option as you can exert better leverage and nullify his strength. A good example of this is road rage situations, Ive been blocked in by a large person who didn’t like how I was driving before and opted to take him down. Its a safe bet he was unarmed as most armed people will attack you with the weapon first I believe, they generally aren’t the types to wait until they’re losing. He was obviously also alone as no one was in his car. He was twice my size and blocking me in with his truck. I didn’t want to risk fighting him on a playing field where both of us had an equal physical advantage, so I took him down where I could use greater leverage against him.

    All I’m saying is use common sense and pick the right tool for the situation. There are no absolutes in life but death and taxes.

  • 88 Vanarra // Jul 18, 2011

    My main point always was and sitll is, MG that the reason the military specifically the US Army is training it’s troops in BJJ is simply because Rorion Gracie is thick with the law inforcement/government community.
    Back before MMA became the “in thing” people like Jerry Peterson, Lew Hicks, Paul Vunak, and Frank Cucci all trained military personnel and still do to some extent.
    I can’t fault Rorion for taking what opportunities come his way. He and the others gotta make money somehow. My point still is that it is wrong to simply say that BJJ is effective and the best because the military trains it’s troops in it. Here’s a revelation – they also issue weapons to the troops that were supplied by the lowest bidder.
    BJJ is effective but its being co-opted by the military has more to do with the Gracie family and their connections than anything else.

  • 89 Marine Grunt // Jul 19, 2011

    Vannarra,

    Please actually read what I post before getting defensive.

    I never said BJJ is awesome because the military trains it. For one thing the military doesn’t train it, the Army trains it. In the Marine Corps we train MCMAP, which is closer to Krav Maga (although independently developed). Even then the Army doesn’t really train BJJ they train MACP, but more on that later.

    I said 3 things:

    1. in reply to your comment that military martial arts evolved from striking to grappling I agreed. But I noted they evolved that way correlative with the evolution away from armored warfare. Since with the invention of ballistic plates most 1st and second world nations have gone back to armored warriors it makes sense that H2H training would begin to focus more on on grappling again.

    2. I said grappling is an important enough aspect of fighting that it should be a regular part of training, not the only part of training. Thats a no brainer, one should be well rounded. You should focus on grappling, striking, defensive tactics and weapons equally.

    3. Finally I said that I reject the idea you should never ever ever go to the ground. If you are facing more than one person, or someone armed with a pistol or knife its a bad idea to go to the ground. Against one person whos larger, a better striker, or someone with a rifle or club grappling is a good option. I would expect my Marines I train in MCMAP to have the judgment and situational awareness to decide when it is and isn’t a good idea.

  • 90 Marine Grunt // Jul 19, 2011

    Now for part 2.

    I haven’t done a lot of MACP as I am in the Marine Corps, not the Army. But I have had some crosstraining, and since I’ve been in the Marine Corps for almost 7 years, and involved in martial arts for for 15 what the other services train is of interest to me. So I have done some research.

    MACP isn’t BJJ, nor was it invented by Rorion, it was invented by Army Ranger MSgt Matt Larson, a student of Rorion. Matt Larson also included techniques from Kali, Muay Thai, and older H2H stuff in addition to basic BJJ.

    They may have hired Rorion as a Subject Matter expert, but they also had the Dog Brothers come in, as well as some Muay Thai guys and college wrestling coaches. We did the same thing in creating MCMAP, but with different SME’s. Subject Matter Experts don’t create a system they advise the people who are creating the system on certain aspects. Ther people who create the system are military personnel, because frankly only military personnel know what other military guys need in a H2H system. Rorion, Vunak, etc… aren’t warriors they’re martial artists. They’ve never been to a war zone, they’ve never worn our gear on a 4 hour patrol, they aren’t qualified to develop something for the military because they’ve never been in our shoes. They can offer specific advice in certain areas. Guess what we hire other SME’s for other purposes too. We have had guys from Blackwater and Gun Site help revamp our Combat Marksmanship/CQB, and we outsourced to Crossfit guys to help revamp PT. But at the end of the day the things they advised us on get painted green and modified for military purpose by actual experts in the military.

    Just an FYI while I’m on the subject, Paul Vunak was never hired to help create any military unarmed system. Units get a certain amount of ‘free money’ per year to use on extra gear, training, etc… Back in the 90′s a Navy Seal team used some of there money to hire Vunak for a seminar. Since the 90′s he’s been putting that he trained the Navy Seals on his resume ever since, no different than Rorion putting that he trained army SF’s even though he really didn’t. Then again we’ve all exaggerated resumes in our life, so you can’t blame them.

    Finally on your issue about the weapons. Thats a half-truth. Our military is frugal but its not cheap. We spend 8 times more than the second largest military power in the world on our military(we’re the 1st). I hate to say it but thats part of the reason we’re in such a financial mess. As a result we have both one of the best trained and equipped militaries, as well as one of the largest. Other militaries with similar equipment and training like Britain’s have no where near the manpower we do. Other militaries with similar manpower like China’s have no where near the level of training or sophisticated gear
    we supply…

    Yes at the end of the day the DoD awarded the new weapons contract for service rifles to Colt over FN or H&K because they were the cheapest that MET MILITARY REQUISITES IN TESTING(capped for emphasis, not emotion). But a M16 A4 or M4A1 is still a 5,000 dollar rifle. Ad trijicon ACOG scopes, Eotech holographic sights, peq 7 laser sights, surefire tac lights and your looking at 10-12k basic. This isn’t even counting an M203 for team leaders which is a few grand more, or a SAW which is much more. And this isn’t even counting crew served weapons like a 5o cal or Mk19 which is OMG WTF more.

    If cheap was the only requisite we’d just give every one a 300 dollar Kalashnikov, or a 500 dollar Galil.

    I’d like to conclude with something I say to every civilian who try’s to educate me on what (they think) they know about the military. Don’t take this the wrong way its meant to be blunt and to the point not an insult:

    I have been in this Gun Club my entire adult life, I don’t care if you have relatives that served back in the day, or friends you went to school with serving now…

    If you haven’t personally served in the military recently, you don’t even begin to know what you don’t know about what what we do or who we are…

    This applies doubly for combat arms jobs like the infantry.

  • 91 Vanarra // Jul 19, 2011

    MG I’m not getting defensive I believe it is you that is going down that road. I have NO beef with you. I never said it was you that claimed BJJ was the greatest style because the Army used it. It was another poster who siad that and that is who I was responding to. I have no beef with the Marine Corps or the Army. I am not trying to educate you on the military any more than you could educate me on Muay Thai, Xingyiquan, Hapkido, Takgeyon, or of the other styles I have trained in or hold indtructors ranking. Believe me I know a little bit about the Graicies seeing how I trained under them. Rorion was awarded the position he has with military and law enforcement for two reasons. One is that he is a badass and his family has proven BJJ in MMA time and time again. The second is that he is knee deep and thick with those organizations and he uses his ethos and influence and friendships to get those gigs just like anyone would. In my humble but professional opinion it is the second one that is the primary reason he gets them. For the record, let me reiterrate – I am not now nor have at any time intended to cast a poot light on the Marine Corps or US Army. My comments were simply in response to a wet behind the ears kid who made a dumb statement NOT a career Marine Corps soldier who keeps miscontruing my comments otherwise.

    Sign off

    Vanarra

  • 92 Vanarra // Jul 19, 2011

    What are the chances? Again I say what are the chances? Wel…..unbeknownst to myself (and I’m sure others) one of my co-workers is ….get ready………..a former instructor in MACP. We just had a 15 minute invigorating conversation. He’s British but a naturalized US citizen.
    Now first a disclaimer. I am NOT nor ever have been in the military. I am a casual martial arts instructor and a former Gracie alumni. I know nothing about the Marine Corps or it’ combatives proagram and this post does not concern that.

    But here it is from the horse’s mouth so to speak regarding the MACP. First off the MACP was never primarily intended for battlefild combat despite the Army’s official line (Developed from real life battlefield hand to hand experience in four wars…yada…yada….yada.
    The MACP was designed to train soldiers to defend themselves in a non combative evironment. US soldiers are often based in places that have high anti US sentiment particularly anti military sentiment. Secondarily, it would serve a purpose in the HIGHLY UNLIKELY event that soldiers on the battlefield would find themselves without a weapon and facing either an armed or equally unarmed adversary.
    If a US soldier gets their ass handed to them in a street fight, it not only is bad PR for the Army, it also might encourage others to target off duty troops. Also when a soldier is wounded they can’t do their job and if one would get killed aside from the bad PR they’ve lost a lot of money in training him and all the other things that go along with it. Keep in mind this is NOT my evaluation I am merely relaying the info.
    There are some instructors in the Army that don’t like the over emphasis on BJJ. They tend to be the old school Okinawan Karate guys who are annoyed that the training is geared toward MMA. Now let me tell you that if you get in a room with Rorion, Rickson, Royce…etc… they can show you all kinds of practical self defense moves that REALLY work. But that’s not what they are teaching in the Army – it’s the MMA gaurd fighting etc…. A street or bar encounter is not an MMA bout and although one needs to be trained in groundfighting the emphasis on a “submission” in a situation that may involve life or death may not be the best venue.
    I trained in BJJ for three years at a Gracie school. I have to admit that I was originally caught up in the hype but I eventually got disillusioned with the style because I was able to thwart a lot of the BJJ technique with my previously trained Judo. Now I am not knocking BJJ I learned a lot from training in it but like Muay Thai and everything else not all of it is practical or applicable in many situations in whcih fights occur. Again my original comments were at a guy (NOT MG) who was claiming that BJJ was the best style because the military was using it and they wouldn’t use anything but the best for their men etc……… I know the Gracies and I know how they market. The US Army is not immune to the dog and pony shows, baked up statistics, etc….. I am not condemning them because if they didn’t do it someone else would be along and surely would. Again I am NOT attacking the military, the US Marines, The Army, etc…..

  • 93 Sarge Peck // Jul 20, 2011

    Im the guy “Vanarra” was talking about in his entry. I will state that what he posted is what I relayed to him in our conversation this morning. I will also add that one of the resons that the mma ground methods are being trained so actively in the Army is that they are popular with the guys. Its much more fun to do mma than to monotenously practise stepped combat routines over and over again. Up until a few years ago the only unarmed combat training the average enlisted guy got was a day or two in boot. The infantry/Rangers/Green Beenies got more with their training but the brass figured it would be more logical in an ever increasing hostile theater to train all their guys to be able to handle themselves. Training in the infantry changed little in that regard because modern warfare hand to hand has changed little since World War 2.

  • 94 Random // Sep 7, 2011

    Thank you to all that contributed to this thread.

    I’m thinking of taking up BJJ for self defence purposes. Of course my all time favourite technique for self defence is not being where the trouble is ;-)

    Anyways – thanks again

  • 95 BJJ Guy // Sep 8, 2011

    I compete and train in BJJ for almost 3 years about 3-4 days a week. It just shows a little BJJ against a person with no skill works well. In my case I would have either choked him out until he passed out (he will wake up again) or continue with the Americana until it applied a small tear on his shoulder tendons (it should heal in 3-4 months, no permanent damage). This would allow for great exit plan and teach the fat guy to have better manners next time hes ordering a burger.

  • 96 Tom // Sep 11, 2011

    The problem you describe about not having a good way to finish the engagement without getting in trouble with the law. To me, that begs the question, is this worth fighting over?

    Now the BJJ guy was able to control and pin the angry, drunk dude with little effort. How is that bad self-defense? Let the guy wear himself out, cool down and the situation will end with out extreme violence.

  • 97 Carlos // Apr 16, 2012

    If you think BJJ is bad self defense go attack a BJJ student and see what happens.

  • 98 Vanarra // Apr 17, 2012

    @Carlos – I don’t think there are many people that would consider BJJ “bad” for self defense. As well, there are people from many styles including BJJ, Shotokan Karate, Judo, etc… that would kick someones ass in a fight were they challenged. The bad press that BJJ gets in the blogosphere is the armchair video warriors who insist on claiming that 4 months worth of BJJ trainin will enable you to beat anybody. That’s just incessant nonsense any way you look at it.

  • 99 dhenwood // May 30, 2012

    the truth of the matter is however that there is no evidence for pressure points winning a fight, show me a video of a single finger strike to the throat or ribs winning a fight. it doesnt happen because gesturing kata at your friends isnt enough it would be like me copying moves i see on you tube and relying on just those moves. also grapplers can strike, i dont know a single grappler that has never done boxing and most have great takedown defence and throws. striking is brilliant i love it but it is far less likely to work on a guy 3 times your size because its simple physics how is your side kick going to move a 300 pound man, a blood choke will always ko a man out when applied correctly and a RNC is piss easy. try ko out a 300 pound man with a single punch. good luck.
    also bjj has self defence, look up gracie jiu jitsu self defence by royce gracie.
    p.s. the reason mma fighters get by fine on the street is their power n speed combined with technique they train 3 times a day at the high level punch like a boxer kick like a thai fighter and grapple like world champs. if mma fighters were easy to ko why are you guys not mma champs. try a combat art before you badmouth it.

  • 100 Steve // Jun 11, 2012

    Wow, talk about a misleading thread title. I came in here expecting the blog owner to have been blasting bjj. As others have said, I wouldn’t call any other system the worst for self-defense. Well maybe taekwondo, ha ha. But for me, nothing compares to grappling in terms of self-defense. I saw this on a forum but the guy wrote that grappling allows you to use just the necessary amount of force required to control and subdue your opponent. Granted it might not work so well against multiple opponents but one on one it’s hard to beat. I am an old man now but every fight I was in when I was younger and more dumb, wrestling and bjj always helped out.

  • 101 Vanarra // Jun 21, 2012

    dhenwood – Pressure points in grappling DO work quite well. I remember I used a pressure point to submit a BJJ brown belt I was rolling with once. And most MMA fighters generally don’t get in street fights. Probably because no one would want to start one with them. There have been examples of MMA guys in the news who stopped an assailant but generally those guys were chumps with probably not a lot of combat training.

    Steve – Of course grappling is great for self defense but it must be modified for street use. I teach combat grappling to students at a local secondary school in Thailand. The very low takedowns in greco roman shouldn’t be used on teh street because if you slam your knee into a cement floor or asphalt you will blow out your knee. Working someone from the gaurd on bottom is not a good idea. Works great in MMA matches where the floor is padded. The ground is not your friend and it allows an attacker on top to be able to use it to inflict exponential pain on you. I use BJJ bottom position techniques to get off the ground and in the side mount or full mount.

  • 102 ray harrison // Jul 7, 2012

    I dont think he does badly at all. I am a blue belt in bjj and worked security for 7 years and this kind of situation happened all the time where you subdue a angry patron but you cant really commit to smashing their face. I would normally have recommended a knee ride as this is very uncomfortable and he would have had trouble breathing as opposed to full mount. I think chokes are better than arm bars anyway. I might have tried a head arm triangle on the fat douche, he would have started to lose consciousnes and would then be too confused to carry on fighting. I once choked a guy who attacked me with a telescopic baton and he shit himself when he was unconcious. He woke up fine and the cops took him away. You can learn any martial art you want but if you cant punch hard enough you just make the other guy angry, thats why i think a lot of guys that are experienced boxers can normally end a street fight with a quick combo. But most of the time you end up getting a criminal record i you resort to those tactics.

  • 103 Carlo Diaz // Jul 28, 2012

    So the name of this article is ridiculous. As a journalist, not only is the content of what you write biased, but the title is offensive. As a Gracie Jiujitsu student, I invite you to Gracie Miami to tell me that I suck. The BJJ student was perfectly in the clear. He was aggressed, he defended himself and to be honest he was very nice to that guy. He had the opportunity to end it with that Americana (which he let go of), as well as reign elbows, kneeds and punches before shattering thar pathetic needs a nee job.fughr g uy’s arm and ego. Whoever wrote this article

  • 104 Nick Erving Mthembu // Aug 3, 2012

    coming from Hillbrow South Africa, one of the most dangerous places in the world and being a practitioner of Judo and Karate since childhood, the first thing that most decent TMA schools teach in this country is to assume that someone is armed either with a gun or knife. secondly quietly extract yourself from the situation.with the high murder rate you do not want to be a statistic.overconfidence will make you one.this guy obviously had confidence in his BJJ skill and let his mouth run rather than using his brain.the confrontation did not have to happen at all.had the idiot had a knife or a gun,this would have been a different conversation.with that said no system is full proof or useless.its up to the practitioner to analyse and decide its shortfalls and correct uses.I was lucky enough to find a strong self defence based karate school.thats all ive ever needed.never had to use my judo but good to know.

  • 105 Kano // Aug 5, 2012

    I’m a former Gracie Jiu Jitsu student (3 years). I have to agree with Nick, I think that the situation could have been avoided altogether. The beard dude should have just ignored the a hole and continued to consume his meal. The cops are the best ones to handle this situation. As for Carlo, man drop the machismo. I’m sure you are a tough fighter but I can give you the names of at no less than four dudes who could come and put the fear of God in you and just about anyone else in your school. BJJ is a great martial art but its not the ultimate end all. Ive been in martial arts for over 25 years and I hold a former world championship title. I started as a high school wrestler when I was 14. As a former Gracie student (and don’t get me wrong, I learned lots from the style) one of the biggest deficiencies I see in the style is the overreliance on ground work and the mentality of always taking the fight to the ground. As a former collegiate champion wrestler and Judo black belt I can tell you that in tournament fighting the ground can be your friend. On the street it is not. It is a weapon and can be used to inflict tremendous pain and damage to the person who gets wedged between it and an opponent bent on destroying you. Furthermore, Ive seen lots of fights go down and to the ground some involving experienced grapplers. None ever ended with the guy on bottom winning. Once you get a submission from the gaurd then what? Even if you break the guys arm he is still combat effective with the other and will just start pounding again when you let go. From the top position you have the advantage of letting go and making a break for it. I know the beard guy was in the top position and that was smart for him but most BJJ schools Ive seen drone on and on with the gaurd and geting submissions there and so on. After about two years in BJJ I got tired of being bruised by the instructors and began using some Greco Roman tie ups and catch as catch can on them. It really flustered them to the point that they started targeting me for retribution and in one case a guy jumped in to save the assistant instructor from a neck crank. BJJ in its pure form doesnt lend itelf well to unorthodox grappling techniques although Im sure the instructors could modify it to do so just as the Gracies did after they began suffereing to more well rounded MMA fighters. BJJ is a piece of the puzzle but not the whole framed picture itself and no matter who you are or how bad you think you are there is someone out there who can and eventually will take you down even if they may not be of such extroardinary tutelage as yourself. The Bearded guy was fortunate, but best to walk away and keep your esteemed fighting skills sharpened for the cage where you can win some money and a trophy.

  • 106 Komasquin Lopez // Aug 10, 2012

    Bjj uses all aspects of fighting if you don’t know there are three stand-up, takedown,and ground. As a student of both bjj styles behing, and Gracie I am insulted. I’ve trained with a grandmaster, two third degree black belts, and a second degree, but my point is anyone who talks smack about bjj is just ignorant. Because every style of combat is meant to finish, and go home, but the biggest mistake a wannabe fighter can make is judging others. Maybe there were things that were left out. Like the man who mounted the ” fat one” may have had his kids watching who would severely hurt someone in front of there children if the need was not there? My point is to be a true master in combative’s one must learn that all styles are lethal used by the right people. Fighting is gained through experience, and those who know will agree with me. The pay for play arts are the ones I expect to have posted this because they are being challenged by a better system of self defense. If anyone takes a disliking to this my name is komasquin Lopez look me up on face book I’m open to anyone who would like to question what I have said, and if you take offense.” you just have to ask for a round any time limit it’s up to you.”

  • 107 Kano // Aug 10, 2012

    Komasquin Lopez – If you are indeed who you say you are then why would you be insulted? When I was in BJJ people talked smack about it all the time. I ignored them. I was comfortable with myself and what I was studying. Challenging people online to ” ask for a round any time limit it’s up to you.” just makes you sound like an ass and further reinforces the bad rap BJJ gets from other martial artists. I have trained with both Rorion and Royce. Rorion is a really great guy and very respectful. He knows he can beat you but you’ll never see him rubbing it in your face. Royce on the other hand is an ass. He’s cocky, and in my opinion a poor sportsman. I’m aware of the advantage BJJ gives a fighter and I am also aware of its drawbacks. You mentioned three areas of fighting standup, takedown, and ground. BJJ’s standup fighting is ignorant. There I said it. Better study Muay Thai or Greco Roman if you want a decent stand up game. BJJ’s takedowns are sophmoric. Works great against a guy who’s never been off his feet. On the ground? Extremely effective in tournaments. On the street – get in the top postion and forget about gaurd sunbmissions someone will break it up before that happens and if a guy pulls a knife out of his pocket with a free hand you’ve got no where to go.

  • 108 Komasquin Lopez // Aug 13, 2012

    I’m sorry if you took offense, but I don’t view rolling as a challenge it’s more like lets train at my school. I didn’t mean a no holds bard match, I meant nice cool like a breeze jiujitsu. You say you got jiujitsu? May you humble me in a practice? My knowledge of combat sports is ok I guess. I started at 10, I’m 21 now, so I also know Greco, actually my first wrestling coaches son won Greco nationals at 17, isayia Verona, but back to me sorry. I know Mauy tai, I also know all three forms of wrestling ( Greco, freestyle, folk style) did them all, I did judo too for a year, I also boxed five years prior to studying jiujitsu, and in jiujitsu I am a student of both their forms berhing and Gracie, aka I know “compitition” and “combative jiujitsu,” better known as jits with hits. Through the years I have never found a lazier sport then jiujitsu, but here is the thing multipule combative, single guy, girl, who ever what ever purpose; every style has those who know how to dance with a person, me I submitted my first 2nd degree black belt as a white belt that’s a guy who has been fighting, for 15 plus years beat by a white belt,wow! No not really its what I was trying to say in the first place the arts are the arts they just look and sound a little different. Training in a room with great men does not make you great, but it seems you will not be moved from your opinion. I thank you, for your feed back have a nice day.
    - Show quoted text -

  • 109 Kano // Aug 13, 2012

    I didn’t take offense. I just get a little tired of all the BJJ machismo that gets thrown around the web. For the record I think the original post is antagonistic. I think it invites people to come on here blow off steam.
    But the video is a poor illustration of anything. The pantless fat guy has about as much fighting skill as a parapalegic and the BJJ guy exhibits no evidence to his technique above rudimentary BJJ grappling skills. And that is generally how it goes in a real fight as all the flashy moves tend to get tossed in favor of the KIS (keep it simple) philosophy. What this video represents is that a clueless oaf can be controlled with little effort using stock fighting skills of any kind. In fact I have yet to see a youtube video of a BJJ guy fighting anyone of any skill in the real world. I’ve seen several where someone takes down and sumbits someone who offers little or no resistance.
    Yet when something like this pops up you’ve always got the BJJ cheerleaders saying “This is how it goes down yeah!” if the guy does good and “Oh, he’s not a REAL BJJ guy” if he screws up.
    Like you I’ve studied martial arts for the greater part of my life. In fact your resume is pretty close to mine. I would say that 40% of what I learned in BJJ is applicable to the street. The rest I wouldn’t use unless I had a death wish. But then again you could say that about any martial art or fighting style. Since the first UFC where Royce Gracie became a household name I have always maintained that an MMA match is not a real fight. It’s closer than a TKD match but I still see instructors and the like teaching “street fighting” techniques that are best served with a comfortable mat. There aren’t going to be any submissions from the gaurd in the real world. If you want to see what a real fight will probably look like go watch one of Tank Abbot’s early UFC fights where he rockets into a guy at 60 mph swinging fists and elbows. That’s how it usually happens.
    The main part of BJJ that was beneficial to me was the part that teaches you how to get off the ground and in my opinion that is what should be taught first. Too much emphasis on submission. In a real fight you don’t have time for that shit. The best scenario would be to roll out of the opponents mount strike him a few times and then bolt off running in the other direction. I’d never use any of BJJ’s stand up stuff as I think it’s ridiculous against even a HS wrestler. I once saw two BJJ guys actually fighting in a praking lot. The fight lasted for maybe 25 seconds. At one point one of the guys tried for a submission but couldn’t get it and then it was back to ground and pound with both guys eventually standing up and being broken up.

  • 110 Komasquin Lopez // Aug 14, 2012

    Well they only get, so much time, and people have all there life to critique. It takes a hard man to defend himself in public, but it does not mean you’re a good fighter, cuz you got into a fight. Good fighters never fight on the street they talk the problem out when you got it you barely need to use it other people can see if you have colly flower ear, or a blank war face, etc. it’s our animal instinct to live and messing with someone you think knows how to fight goes against that, but on the other hand those who don’t have fight skills use it more often because they think he punched me I have to do something now, but in retrospect if I’d punch someone like a sucker punch to the temple and he was like, so you got one more hit I’d run like hell away! My point is I’ve never seen a really high belt fight on the street unless there was no other option, and this is why everyone sees these funny fight videos on YouTube because what’s words or a push/punch to someone who trains fight everyday that’s why they go to a fight gym to experiance that don’t get me wrong defend yourself, but if you are a pro licensed fighter 2 hits it enough bodily harm to start teaching someone what pain is on the street. Back to my point I get side tracked a lot, but usually a YouTube fighter and I say this being humble to there defense, but there usually not above a blue belt. So you can’t really be like he sucks because, he is a student he’s soppost to suck. On there belt in bjj it’s all about that black bar if your really good by your blue belt you get a red bar aka instructor, this position is, for at least purple in most styles, so the day I watch a blue belt instructor fight and look like he doesn’t know what he is doing then I’ll no longer train bjj, but since I’ve trained with grand master flavio before, and was shown what bjj really is I have never been humbler. Think about it were all brothers of the arts bjj, kempo, karate can all spar and there’s always going to be one constant there participating in a combative sport win or lose your brothers sharpen your skill by participation.

  • 111 Vince // Sep 12, 2012

    BJJ guy handled the situation fine. The other option however had his “pleading” not work would be to choke him out via arm triangle, front naked choke/sleevless ezekiel. Then fat boy is sleeping, providing BJJ guy PLENTY of time to get the hell out of there. Admittly, had fat boy’s friends been around, then yeah, BJJ guy has problems.

  • 112 Open minded-striker // Sep 29, 2012

    I come from a very traditional striking background but recognise that positives can be found in many various styles (and the more you know the better). As obnoxious as yellow shirt was with his behaviour, I would have let the store staff handle it…they can either give him what he wants or call the cops. Having said that, once yellow shirt goes for BJJ guy, taking the big guy to the ground is a great way to neutralise the fight without doing (or taking) major damage. It’s a smart way to avoid legal problems, and having basically imobilised him, trying to talk the guy down is your first option. If it doesn’t work, call the cops. If yellow shirt fakes ‘uncle’ then starts to attack again…just take him down again, if he couldn’t land a shot at the beginning, I doubt he’ll be able to as he gets up or after. So I think BJJ guy’s strategy worked well, overall.

    THAT SAID, against someone who’s potentially skilled and more mobile, or has friends near who may step in, I’d be wary of taking it to the ground. You’re exposing your head to strikes, especially knees on the way in, and elbows to the back of the head if you don’t get the takedown straight away. And in some situations (eg. crazy bar fight) the ground surface itself could be dangerous…think jagged broken glass. But default to striking, and you may have to really damage this guy to stop him…and that itself could get his friends on to you. So it’s a choice, lol.

    Last point: not easy to apply at all, especially with bigger guys, but there are standing joint locks and submission holds, for example from Japanese jiu jutsu, which can additionally be used to put the guy down, with the joint still under pressure, as you kneel over him…this may be the optimal position to restrain him (rather than impact him with strikes), whilst maintaining some mobility and awareness of the situation.

  • 113 Paul // Oct 6, 2012

    The Gracies agree. They created Gracie Jiujitsu for that (Karate blocks, parries and strikes). Of course Gracie jiujitsu needs to start training more on getting of the ground.

  • 114 Sean // Oct 14, 2012

    I’m no MA expert (gave them up years ago), but I do have a lot of experience in the de-esculation of confrontation and dealing with aggressive patients through my job as a nurse. This fight should never have happened. Yellow tub was on his way out of the burger bar, he only came back after being provoked by the Gracie wannabe. If it came to court, Tub would probably get aggravated assault at most. It’s difficult not to be a smart ass sometimes, but Gracie wannabe should have shown more self control and shut his mouth. Starting a fight is the antithesis of self defence imo.

  • 115 Carlo Diaz // Oct 16, 2012

    Kano, I will repeat myself. Anyone wants to talk trash on the Gracie family, I invite you to my scho, Gracie Miami. My name is Carlo Diaz. There is no macho tough guy act. I trained with Grandmaster Helio, rickson, Royce, rener,, ryron and Relson. I will defend their family name, because I signed a contract too. if any of your friends live in the south Florida area, send them my way to put “the fear of good in me”. Here’s my number if you are serious. 305,244,1134. Respect and love to all.

  • 116 Carlo Diaz // Oct 16, 2012

    Furthermore KKano, for someone who claims to have trained at a “Gracie” school you show little faith. As a black belt in Judo, you should know when you OSOTO GARI someone and lock them up with that arm lock from knee on belly, they are defenseless. I an not a strong guy, but I an confident in the superior technique of authentic Gracie Jiujitsu. I am merely defending the honor of my art while you are here talking about you’re black belts and world championships.

  • 117 Kano // Oct 18, 2012

    Carlos, I live in Asia so it’s impossible at the moment for me to “look you up”. However I have no qualms about it and if I were Stateside and near to you I would swing by for a 1 on 1. I am however ALL about street fighting – which means no mats. That’s one of the reasons I broke with the Gracie school. I’ll dare say that I’ve witnessed way more street fights than you have throughout my life. At the school I went to as a kid someone got their ass handed to them every other day. But that’s neither here nor there because you can come back and say you were interred in a Russian gulag or something and yada, yada, yada……. Anyway in my experience I’ve noticed a few things which hold true even over the hundred+ fights I’ve seen and/or occasionally taken part in.
    1. Real fights generally last less than 15 seconds. When there’s no referee and the possibility exists that there can and will be severe physical injury or death, the human body tends to dump all the available adrenaline into your system. Coincidentally the average person has about 15 seconds (imagine that!) of pure burn before the body is exhausted. Any real damage will be done during that time. Even when I’ve (rarely) witnessed a fight between two BJJ guys it was ground and pound.
    2. No REAL fights are won from the bottom position – meaning gaurd. A submission, arm break, or a choke gets more complicated when dealing with an adrenalized nutcase who is flailing around with all that spinach power. Having your back on the pavement (in a word) sucks and all strikes the dude on top lands have double the effect. Not a good situation and trust me I know from experience. Even if you get an armbar/submission (forget about street leglocks – too problematic) what happens when you let go? Your opponent just sees another opportunity to regroup and there you go again. Also don’t think that by merely breaking the guy’s arm you are going to put him away. All that afforementioned adrenaline renders the guy still combat effective, hell, there was a Savate champion who got both arms broke and went on to win the match with just kicks.
    This brings me to the reason (actually not the main reason) I left the Gracie academy. They were teaching uard fighting as stock street combat and I found that ludicrous to say the least. Now the Gracie stuff is great for getting you OFF the ground (which in the REAL WORLD (read – outside of the octagon or Pride) should be your all encompassing goal) but that was NOT what they were teaching students. To get to the real reason I left, well, I took the opportunity to roll one day with a Black Belt at the academy. I passed his guard and got him in a Kesa gatame (side scarf hold). Oh well, here it comes….”Oh datz bulshiz man allz ya gotta do is bridgz and den ya….” Not so easy to bridge when I’ve got my knee between your shoulder blades. I had him locked up tight and he panicked. I slipped my other arm in under his neck and it was lights out. Well, that didn’t sit too well with the other guys at the school. They started targeting me. Next night I came in and my locker door had been kicked in. Then it seemed like everyone was trying to get a piece of me. What finally did it for me was when a purple belt and I were rolling and he decided to go totally NHB on me and started elbowing my skull. I responded by jabbing him in the ribs and then kneeing him in the crotch. I didn’t get him really good because we stood up and the guys had to break us up. I went home and never came back.
    About me showing “little faith”, well as an experienced street brawler you can call me many things but you can never call me naive. To be honest with the exception of all their tournament experience I’ve never met a BJJ guy who can honestly say that they’ve had to use their “jits” for real and by that I mean that someone is trying to main or kill them (and with a referee standing by it doesn’t count). I’ve seen a few fights on youtube here and there but those usually are some guy with some solid grappling against a dude who doesn’t know shite. As for me “talking trash” about the Gracies, man you need to cut back on the caffene. In no way am I or hae I ever questioned the Gracies or their tournament records. They speak for themselves. Now when one of them gets up and makes a statement about the overall effectiveness of their stuff on the street – you bet I will if that statement is at odds with my personal experience. To be honest with you the toughest guy I’ve ever known was not a Gracie. His name was Mark. Mark was a Hsing-i Kung Fu practitioner. Mark had claimed to have been in over 70 fights and never lost. He looked rather Count Danteish and at first glance and did not appear that threatening. But I once saw Mark drop a Hell’s Angel biker (no joke) with one hit. I came into the acquaintence of Mark in my mid 20′s. I had been friends with a big black guy who was in the joint (prison) and he had taught me some prison fighting called Jailhouse Rock or something to that effect. I had gotten pretty fast at it. Well, I was at a party one night and Mark was there. I didn’t know who he was. I was boxing with another guy, just screwing around and Mark started making cheap cracks about my stuff. I asked him if he wanted to try it and he walked toward me. I threw about 10 punches at Mark none of which hit him. He backed up so fast and would keep a stable cushion of distance between you and him. I also observed over time he could do the same with speedy grappler/shooters. Mark eventually got tired of it and grabbed me by the head and threw me into the wall. Mark and I became friends and over the course of a few years he taught me quite a bit. In short I learned that lots of guys even ones that are hailed by the giants of Pride and UFC as “great strikers” really don’t know how to throw a punch. In short Mark was a one man wrecking crew and I’d put him up against any of the Gracies any day of the week. Sadly I lost track of him a few years back and I don’t know where he is at this time.

  • 118 Dan // Oct 18, 2012

    So let me get this straight Mr. Kano. you’re both a BJJ blackbelt destroying whitebelt as well as a “certified street brawler” who apparently gets in street fights on the same basis as the characters of streets of rage. well Jedi Master Kano I’m sorry if I’m a tad bit skeptical.

    first of all I’ll flat out say it. street fights are grossly over estimated by RBSD nut jobs and people who grossly over estimate the average punk. I don’t know what you mean when you say i’m all about street fighting but the average street fighter sucks. yeah i said it. sucks. if you watch videos or actively go and see fights and pubs, bars, street corners, etc. you will see the same thing over and over again. wild punches, wild haymakers, piss poor wrestling, and stomps if one guy can down the other guy.

    this idea that someone is dangerous or skilled because they fight on the streets doesn’t prove anything. all it proves is the person doesn’t have the mental capacity to walk away or avoid physical confrontations. The ultra dangerous street fighter is nothing more then a myth proposed by those who get/got beaten by highly trained fighters and needed some type of way to make their skills seem like they actually matter.

    there was an old video series called felony fights in which many times you witnessed violant criminals vs MMA fighters. the violent criminals got crushed. simply because having a history of violant outbreaks and scuffs with the law does little to show actual technical fighting skill. that is all fights will come down to. TECHNICAL FIGHTING SKILLS. something that very very very few people who “brawl” on the streets ever have.

    while i’m all for not fighting off your back in a street fight the idea that subs don’t work due to adrenaline and wild flailing is a joke and has been proven thousands of times over on youtube, in the cage, and in the ring since the phrase “armbar” was ever invented. all fights involve adrenaline its the natural stimulus in fights. People who train to fight are used to fighting while this is happening hence why pro fighters don’t gas even if they go for broke from the starting bell ( pride was a perfect example of this) meanwhile amatuers still do. a big example is comparing the fighters from ufc 1 to the fighters from ufc 6-7. during those early ufc’s there still were no rounds and fight went on till tapout or KO, yet the fights that happend in 6-7 lasted significantly longer then the first ones. this is because people had trained for that environment. They had trained to fight till they won. street “brawlers” aren’t.

    people have amped up the idea of street fighting to make it somehow this mortal kombat like fight when actually its not nearly that great. just a bunch of punks swinging wildly. the only time it becomes that of true danger a trained fighter doesn’t deal with is in the case of multiple opponents. Which i might add, that no, absolutely no style will teach you how to defeat consistently or effectively. there are only tactics that will help.

    back to the subject at had. as these fights and the slew of fights all over the net of trained BJJ fighters fighting once you know how defeat an opponent through technical superiority the only people who will beat you are those with even greater technical superiority. meaning better trained. the deadly street fighter is nothing more then a martial arts boogyman concocked by those who can’t except being beaten in the ring.

    I also criticize this maim or kill mindset. this is again nothing more the hype. in reality a knowledge of why people attack and engage in violence is needed. few people ever set out to kill somoene in h2h combat. most h2h combat scenarios result from a argument of two or more people’s ego, robbery or someone is defending another person. during fights for ego usually one party just seeks to win for the validation of pride in the eyes of his peers, no intent to kill, though that can indeed be an outcome. just the gratification of their on self.

    in robberies the aggressor 90% doesn’t want any trouble at all and just want the valuables of someone.

    While defending someone else is usually the least likely someone is wanting to kill mostly because the violant aggressor doesn’t even want trouble with the person defending but rather whomever that person is defending.

    when people actually attack with intent to kill its usually pre-meditated or the results of some type of hate crime.multiple people want to see someone die for offending someone else, when these attacks do happen its usually with the aid of tons of weapons. mostly firearms. so the fights that happen on the streets are about as far from what you’re describing as you can get Kano. I also went to an inner city school and I can tell you that any school with a level of violence that high has police at all times. this “im from the school of hard knocks so i know fighting mentality” is flawed to say the very least.

    also consistently fighting doesn’t prove anything other than you’re doing something very very wrong in your life as to why people want to kick your teeth in so bad.

    if you were to look at the gracie combatives program you’d also realize that pulling guard and fighting from the guard are concepts done only for sport. same as doing only leg kicks in a fight is strategy used only in sport muay thai. or the roper dope is a strategy only for sport boxing. in actuality the concept is always position over submission and BJJ guys have an excellent track record of actually being good fighters as opposed to the tons and tons of other mcdojo’s that produce 6 year old board breakers in fancy uniforms while dancing around the issues of combat. This simply due to them learning to fight by fighting constantly. same as judo, sambo, and wrestling.

    concrete is not some kryptonite for grappling based martial artists, especially since if you’re good at grappling you’re not going to be the one lying flat on it. If you did indeed learn BJJ you were at probably the worst school on the planet.

  • 119 Kano // Oct 19, 2012

    Oh boy was I stupid. Stupid to get myself drawn into another shout out involving a bunch of “cage fighting champions” who seem to have nothing better to do (like eating/sleeping) when not training at Rickson, Royce, or Renner’s houses than to get on here/Sherdog/etc… and tell the world how bad they are. Now the expected alter egos have shown up. Well this is the last I am posting on this thread. Dan or whoever you are insert former name, I am also a black belt in Judo not just a “white belt killer” and I can roll with the “big boys”. You sling a lot of stupid mud that can be “verified” by a quick youtube search and lets not forget wikipedia. Gracie combaties? Why don’t you stop watching DVDs and go train at a real Gracie School like so many people on this thread have apparently done? My last words on this. Beard guy should have just STFU and let porky pig run off at the mouth and then leave or let the police handle it. We can speculate all day and night about what can and can’t happen in a street fight. I’ve been in some and seen many and I am confident that I can hold my own if and when the next time comes regardless of how many video jockeys want to take innane shots and throw down bombastic challenges that everyone knows will never happen. Go fuck yourselves you’ll always be dreamers and not doers. And for anyone else who feels the need to uphold the Gracie family name, apparently in all your high end BJJ training you missed one of the most fundamental lessons which most people are generally taught in Kindergarten – something about sticks an stones? Let the Gracies defend themselves I can assure you having trained with them they are more than capable. And remember no matter where you find yourself and whatever life throws at you – you’re not Royce.

  • 120 Dan // Oct 19, 2012

    No Kano, i sling facts and breakdowns, not just consistant urban legends that pose in the martial arts community as truth. Thats what you do. honestly, who actually would stoop to call themselves a certified street brawler and then expect to be taken seriously?

    I’m a big cage fighting sheer dog warrior? aren’t you the one who just a post ago was going on about how he was a certified street brawler? all i did was fact check you. simple as that. i facked checked you what the actual mental state is behind why someone attacks( i.e. its not some blood lust rage)

    I attacked you on you’re less then admirable claims that consistant fighting in public is somehow “cool” or shows anything. Its not only stupid, dangerous, and embarrassing, but also doesn’t prove anything about how technical and good a fighter is seeing as most street fighters suck( which you can verify all you like with your youtube videos. I’ve already done it and 9/10 youtube fights are just wild haymaker fests)

    not to mention i’ve seen many black belts in judo go into BJJ and while their newaza skills are deff there its a whole new ballgame with different rules, even before the changes made by Kodokan in 2010. never seen any BB go in and start man handling BJJ blacks, because its a whole new slew of skills, subs, and positions Judoka don’t practice at all. But you’re saying you did it like it was nothing??

    if you want to prove the stuff i said wrong then go ahead, I look forward to debunking you. But you seem to be acting just like how everyone else does when they are checked for the ridiculous ideas about martial arts and fighting- goes on to speak about how everyones is just a UFC nerd, and can’t appreciate real martial arts blah blah blah. argue you with facts not fabrications and this won’t happen.

    I never even mentioned the gracies, all I did was rip apart this street fighters being such great fighters mindset because its a stereotype thats very false. your idea that subs can’t be done during adrenaline rush didn’t make since because thats exactly when and how they’re done in actual fights( usually in Pro fights, and this is where i’m guessing you started putting your hands over your ears and going LALALALALALALALA) if someones on PCP they might still be able to fight, but if they’re on adrenaline alone they’ll definitely feel they’re arm being snapped especially considering they will visually see it and shock will take in immediately. and a choke will always work. Doesn’t matter how tough you are.

    coming from a supposed Judoka you should know about these types of attacks considering judo does them as well. the disrespectful language also does little to prove your points and just( like anyone else) just makes you appear juvenile, and disrespectful. this coming from someone you just branded an internet warrior.lol

    the one thing MMA taught the martial arts community was despite all the claims and ideas this is how a fight looks. all a street fight does( when its only two opponents) is look like an even poorer version of UFC one for the reason of lack of training. they arent cool or “realer” they jus look untrained and crappy.

    oh and as for my training. I’m only a Blue belt but I damn sure didn’t learn learn it from gracie combatives. I listed gracie academy for an example of the mindset the gracie jiujitsu program teaches for its self-defense, as opposed to its sport mindset.
    I train In Cleveland, Ohio, under master Jose Ze. I also spent 7 years of my life in taji mantis gung-fu under my uncle at his dojo.

    http://youtu.be/ucNkYZZU4_k ( i’m the guy in the blue). I’d loooove to see some of your sparring.

    I don’t even post on sherdog because I find many MMA only forums too dogmatic in views if you think this keyboard lashing is bad, I simply implore you to go Martialartsplanet.com and post the same things you just posted here, and see what the reaction is from tons of other martial artists from tons of other styles, many not even BJJ. tell em Roninmaster sent you.( grabs popcorn)

  • 121 Kano // Oct 19, 2012

    Dan I’m not going to respond any further other than to ask you to point out and reference the place in any of the postings where I claimed to be a “certified street brawler”. I never did and your lame attempt at provoking a fallacy aimed at people too lazy to go back and read over the posts will fall flat on that mark. I’m unsubscribing to this thread so no other notifications will hit my inbox. Go train and be a bad ass. Peace.

  • 122 Shawn Belllan // Oct 21, 2012

    Dan if you are going to use you tube videos as a barometer of how well techniques work in mixed martial arts or on the street then how about the plethora of videos many of which are mixed martial arts matches where the guy knocks his opponent out with an acrobatic kick? I saw one guy taken out with a somersault kick. Why not put those techniques on an equal footing with Brazilian Jiu Jutsu since apparently they do work as evidenced by the videos? Felony fights? Sounds kind of like professional wrestling to me. And how do they determine that a guy is a violent criminal? I actually know few people experienced fighters included who would volunteer to step into the ring with such a person no matter what the pay off.

  • 123 Dan // Oct 21, 2012

    about Flashier moves. I’m not one to say they don’t work. I have a good friend and training buddy who is a TKD blackbelt and have tons of other friends who do martial arts too. Some flashier moves do indeed catch people. but you should stop and ask how many flashier moves do you see in comparison to finishes from just a simple choke or punch. the fact that we’re even talking about flashy acrobatic KO’s shows how rare they can be.

    personally I think the more aesthetically pleasing techniques like acrobatic wheel kicks from capoeira are great but shouldn’t be over done. just likey flying punches and kicks, those techniques are best when an opponent doesn’t expect them. if you start doing nothing but acrobatic techniques you lose your surprise advantage, as well as burn much more energy.

    when I sight youtube I site it as evidence for how fights look. Kano was spouting about how adrenaline stops submission from working, but if you go look up both street and pro fights you can see that thats not the case. I mean using footage from videos of real combat to show evidence of claims. its 2012. there shouldn’t be anymore talks of secret techniques and how in the street vs sport blah blah. its plain as day the parallels between how somoene fights in ring vs at a bar, and youtube and online videos are a tool to show this. nothing more.

    people shouldn’t try and talk as if it honestly makes any sense to say ” oh i can’t beat him in a ring, but on the streets i’d win blah blah” that makes no sense.

    Felony fights was a very very very stupid violant video series by one of those companies who do terrible shows like bum fights. it was by no means ethically or morally in the right or lawfully good, and had to have been made by sick people.

    but basically it were videos of different ex cons who went around fighting other convicts or hoodlums( similar to bum fights) however during a couple fights someone would pay an MMA fighter to join in, usually no more than an amatuar, and you’d see him destroy this ex con. simply put: being violant, or lawfully dangerous doesn’t mean you can fight. most of these guys are dangerous due to histories of violant outbreaks for little to no reason. violant assaults, robberies etc. but they have no technical fighting skill or training. all of their fighting is random and against other people who have little to no training or are unsuspecting or weak. usually they’rd rely on muscle and brute strength to win them fights, so when they go up against someone who is well trained and fights all the time professionally, they are destroyed.

    @Kano. oh i’m sorry you said “experienced street brawler, not certified street brawler”. same crap different toilet. plus you began to swear at me so don’t get mad when i call you out on poor reasoning skills.

  • 124 Shawn Belllan // Oct 21, 2012

    Dan I reread through Kanos posting. He didnt say that adrenaline stops submissions from working he said it simply complicates things which with some reservations I agree. I dont agree with everything he said but one thing I will concur is his observation that street encounters are very short. I am a person who on the one hand can say I like Brazilian Jiu jutsu but I hate people that train in it. Really from each of your stand points the argument is stupid. Dan you pointed out that rarely are street opponents skilled. Well then Kanos Judo cum street boxing would work as well as your Brazilian Jiu Justu seeing how your opponent is basically a putz. An Ax kick to the face would probably be as effective as a guillotine choke. Therefore the whole superiority of Gracie Jiu justsu in a street encounter becomes a moot point because apparently any well trained technique would do agasint an idiot.
    If Kano was implying that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu would be ineffective because of the concrete surface I would say that is equally a poor argument. Though after reading through all the posts I dont think that was his intention I find it more likely that you were reading things into it as per your pre-concieved notions based upon similar back and forths with others in the past. Mixed martial arts is a sport that has evolved from earlier no holds barred matches and tourneys. Technical grappling skills work well against opponents who are equally skilled in their arts but in a flash fight all that technical manuvering just might give your opponent the time he needs to whip out a knife and bury it in your back. In my opinion it would be best to keep it short and simple like a quick choke or strike to the throat. The problem I see with Brazilian Jiu jutsu guys are that on the one hand they will say that mixed martial arts is the best medium for gauging street effectiveness then drop names like Rener and Relson who have unimpressive or non existent records in that area.
    Nowadays modern fighters use Brazilian Jiu justsu as a component of their training but not an end in itself. After the first UFCs the Gracies were out spouting off how their style was the best and all others were shit up until Royce lost to Ismail and other Gracie family members began to lose against more skilled opponents like Sperry, Shamrock, ….
    And one way Ive found that is good to spot a chump is that they are constantly parading the R pronounced as an H side of the family but seem to Ignore the Carlos Jr side which is more highly respected in Brazil and has constistently produced better fighters. Sorry if I rambled but thats how I see it.

  • 125 Dan // Oct 21, 2012

    shawn i think you’re misinterpreting me to be one of those gracie jiujitsu is the only good style guys. cuz i’m not. i am however more partial to grappling over striking. I think that both are very important, but if you asked me which do you think should be learned first i’d argue grappling.

    BJJ is not the only way, many would argue if you had to do one grappling system to pick up sambo, wrestling, or catch wrestling if possible. you learn takedowns as well as subs versus BJJ which will give you great subs but much fewer good takedowns.

    however lets not take away from what the gracie’s have done, which was capitalize on the reality of grappling in real fights, and then give you an effective model of using it to defend yourself with.

    my arguments with Kano was over the idea of how all street fights are these lethal death matches when in reality thats not the case. it most certainly can turn into that, but as i mentioned many people don’t study the psychology of violence. as well as some claims he made that i was skeptical to say the least. especially the idea that street fighting should ever be touted as something to be proud you do or as some sort of badge of skill.

    people don’t seem to also take into consideration that you’re also going to train in whatever makes you happy. I used to hate BJJ due to how the gracies marketed it, but the big thing about the gracies is you have to take somethings as just marketing. the main reason for the victories in NHB fights were that few knew how BJJ worked.

  • 126 Dan // Oct 21, 2012

    also grappling is usually the main method to teach people how to deal with weapons. I know the gracie academy videos have a lot of demonstration on dealing with weapons. generally in most systems the idea remains the same. isolate the attack weapon, and control distance.

  • 127 Shawn Belllan // Oct 22, 2012

    Dan Ill start by saying that this whole thing seemed to begin with your response to Kanos post which was a direct response to Carlo Diazs post which WAS a drum beating cheerleader routine for Brazilian Jiu jutsu. As for Carlo, man you just made a challenge to a faceless person of very questionable skill online. It makes you sound like an idiot and a fool. So what if you were to meet up with Kano, fight and beat him? Wow you just wipped a no name loser. Go pop a can of Milwaukees Best and have your friends slap you on the back. In no way does that defend the Gracie family name or lend any credence to the style or yourself as a practitioner of it. Go beat a nationally ranked mixed martial art fighter and then we can have a chat.
    Dan your blasting Kano just lends credence to that post and Im sorry if it offends you but that is one of my pet peeves. I mean I cannot vouch for Kano but you made a point of making him look like a complete fool by misconstruing things he said. It doesnt bode well for any type of discourse when you begin by basically saying – “Well I think you are a complete full of shit loser…..that said……” Ad hominem attacks arent exactly examples of “good reasoning skills” as you indirectly alluded to in a previous post. Honestly Kano could be a 15 year old sitting behind a computer having the time of his life. He could be totally full of it but the same could be said for any of us. Keyboard muscles are as big for one guy as the next. Kano claimed to be a former college wrestler and a black belt in Judo. Not knowing for sure I would say give him the benefit of the doubt. If that is true then I find it not so far out that he could have choked a Brazilian Jiu jutsu black belt out. At my high school we had some guys on the wrestling team who did Brazilian Jiu jutsu on the side at a local gym. A few of them had been training for years. After practice lots of them would have one on one freestyle matches. Sometimes the Jiu jutsu guys would win, sometimes not. Either way it is not enough to say one style trumps another.
    But what I get sick of is when someone makes a claim of having put down a Jiu jutsu guy all that they get in responses are “Oh man thats impossible!” And why? Because of the Jiu jutsu is the best mindset. Remember way back when Emin Boztepe, that Wing Chun guy challenged Royce Gracie? Well I had severe doubts about whether Emin could have beaten Royce and thats all flub because the match never happened. But the Gracies began doing the same thing in stretching the truth and trying to make Emin look like a rube. I read the press releases form both sides and the claims the Gracies were making about Emin and the things he said were totally false. I have to ask myself why a respected family of fighters has to do that when all they would really have to do is show up and kick ass? Emin and Royce apparently couldnt agree on a neutral venue for the event and according to Emin the Gracies kept selecting places that were home turf like the LA police department. According to Emin the Gracies refused to change venues and thats when the Gracies started claiming that Emin was backing out and making totally absurd requests like demanding that 100 police officers be present when he never made that request.
    I do respect the Gracies for what they did for the world of martial arts. They got up and told the masses that they could no longer be taken seriously having tunnel vision and a strict one style mindset. Inevitably they became victims of their own criticisms because they WERE fighters with a strict one style mindset and as such were unable to continue when the sport began to produce fighters skilled in numerous arenas and wary of the only unique weapon in the Gracie arsenal – the guard. This whole defend Ju jitsu thing harks back to the old days of Royce and while Royce is a great fighter who certainly made his mark in the annals of martial arts history the Royce of then wouldnt be able to compete successfully against todays mixed martial arts wrecking balls.
    I tire of people pulling the mixed martial arts card every time the street fight spector rears its ugly head and raising the Gracie Jiu jutsu flag when those said fighters seats have been vacant at mixed martial arts events for some time.

  • 128 Dan // Oct 22, 2012

    shawn, i’m sorry you have to deal with many BJJ nubs. I get replies every time someone responds to this based on comments I made months ago. I checked in a couple days ago to see what Kano was writing. I didn’t go far enough to read everything Carlo wrote neither do I care. His mindset about street fighting seemed like BS and claims were coming off as reaking of nothing but machesmo. either way my comments were to him and his ideas on street fights. I already gave you my input on what I think of BJJ in the martial arts world in my previous posts, so i don’t see why you keep attempting to hammar home to me the flaws you see in the gracies. I’m sure Wong fei hung did some questionable things in his life to. I’m not here to be the lawyer of the gracies.

    I think the reason people still are hard press to believe when people say they have beaten a BJJ blackbelt is because the creators are very much still alive and its a system created and fortefied on constant competition. so when you have a blackbelt you know its through tons of pressure testing and continuous competition.
    on average it takes about 10 years for a black belt in BJJ versus, avg of 5 in karate, 3 in american TKD, 4 in hapkido. add into that the fact that it being heavily associated with MMA with the creators and ambassadors still being alive, to stop the Mcdojo’s from doing to it what they did to karate. this isn’t “hype” this simply fact in the BJJ community. which is why people who have experience with the art come of as skeptical to such claims. Generally great wrestlers are expected crush white belts , and put blue-belts in a bind, but usually purple belt is around the time where a good control of stronger opponents is there.

    Now It makes no sense to take every defense of a claim or an art as my kung-fu is better mindset. Just a response to a statement. I honestly wish I could do catch wrestling. as good catch wrestlers are amazing against usually any other grappler that they’re up against. Sakuraba being a perfect example.

    and thats another thing. Royce wasn’t even that great. he won the UFC because nobody knew BJJ yet. not because he was that great of a fighter. As you mentioned he didn’t do good in modern rules, because he has the only BJJ mindset. Rickson was someone who actually fought good people in pride, and remained on top. while constantly learning new skills from his Judo peers.

    in a post about BJJ you’d have to expect people to be mentioning why they like BJJ and think its a good martial art.so why get up in arms when people begin to talk about why its good. I wouldn’t go on a JKD site and start spouting about how I think Bruce Lee was a frawd and couldn’t actually fight, or just copied ideas from others and said it was his own, simply because I hate how Bruce Lee fans talk now would I?

    aside from Carlo I haven’t seen any BJJ machesmo or my style is the best comments. as a matter of fact i’ve never heard anyone actually say they think BJJ is the best style in the world. Just a system they a very confident will work, and has worked previously.

    my pet peeve is when people begin to rant to you about all the things the gracies were not up front about like it makes a difference to your training.royce did steroids, and rorian sued his entire family over using their own last name. and while i’m at it the 90% of fights go to the ground statistic was inflated as well because it was not a statistic about real fights, but a statistic of police takedowns. in actuality only about half of fights go to the ground, as conducted by a study of youtube street fights.
    Does this really matter to me? No. why? because I like BJJ and I like what it does. are their other routes to the same goal, certainly. however i personally find pleasure in this one. why should you be angered that people take pride and enjoyment in what they do?

    I’m sorry the rest of the fanboys may have pissed you off, but don’t group everyone whom generally enjoys something, and can defend reasons for doing such into the same group as them.

  • 129 Dan // Oct 22, 2012

    Shawn if people were talking about how much they loved muay thai, would the convo or anything i said to Kano be any different? or would the fact that many MMA noobs love Thai now too weigh against me?

    lol its like people are falling into martial arts hipsters. [ i can't like any of those arts because they're too mainstream]

  • 130 Dan // Oct 22, 2012

    also afte re-reading my post I feel i may have not illustrated my point with the BJJ black belt well enough. it seemed odd not only because of the training BJJ teachers should be at, and competition you’re forced to do. but also due to the fact that from the story he so easily beat him in his own game. both wrestling and judo cover ground fighting in much different light. mostly from a positional pin perspective. to have someone new to this entire method come in and choke out a teacher so easily as he put it, is like that same Blackbelt going off and taking down and pinning a 3 time all american wrestler. it comes off as unlikely. especially when the stats are nowhere near in favor of that outcome.

    it was that as well as what seemed like consistant ego tripping. ( i.e. I’m all about street fighting, i do tactics to maim or kill, i’m and experienced street brawler, as well as parading street fighting like its to be proud of)

  • 131 Shawn Belllan // Oct 22, 2012

    Dan enough with the BJJ blackbelt you have illustrated your point. I actually went back and re read the posts again this time taking into consideration your accusations and I honestly believe you are placing them into the framework of your own bias. We all do it now and then. After going through Kanos post I just come to the conclusion that he thinks based upon his experience which he claims that some Brazilian Jiu jutsu techniques are impractical for the street. He didnt say all. And to be honest with you it is also my experience that many Jiu jutsu schools overemphasize ground fighting specifically the guard. I dont think that anything he said warranted accusations that he studied at the “worst BJJ school on the planet”, and suggesting that he “put his hands over his ears and went LALALALALALA”. Its sophmoric and does little more than illustrate that you are incapable of having an intelligent conversation without resorting to the same rude behavior you accuse others of doing. I came onto this thread from a third party site because it caught my interest and sadly it has degenerated into what I find on so many other places. I guess maybe Ive had the last straw placed on my back.We all could use a weekend seminar in mutual respect I guess or better yet lets all get together face to face and see if we can throw around our little petty attitudes like we do form the comfort of our own roo ms behind a monitor. Ive said all I wish to say at this point. Time to get back to more productive things in life.

  • 132 Shawn Belllan // Oct 22, 2012

    Also I know what your comeback is going to be and I also know that Kano used abusive language toward you but if you had plowed into me the same way Id probly have been cussin you too. By the way, back in the thread there are lots of other responses toward Jiu jutsu that are worse than his.

  • 133 Dan // Oct 22, 2012

    Shawn you give me too much credit. My pet peave isn’t people disliking BJJ, but rather a false mindset about street fights and the nature of violence regarding them. This mall and kill mindset is not only detremental to a civilized society, but very fanatical in approach as it assumes all self defense senarios are the same.

    I converse with people on martial arts a lot, and have become more prown to quick reactions of claims that seem embellished. Either way I don’t believe I acted as harshly towards Kano as your making me out to however I can admit to reacting strongly when people begin to make claims about the nature of street violence that Isn’t on the factual.

    As for BJJ I hope I’ve demonstrated I’m not a fan boy. If you look at my second post to Kato I posted a link to a video of myself rolling/sparring.

    As a matter of fact my career is a videographer and I recently finished a documentary about MMA.
    https://vimeo.com/38609466

    I’m sorry that some people over embellish their skills but we are not all like that. As for the blackbelt that’s something I was trying very hard to give an accurate statement about the ranking system. If you google the modern BJJ belt ranking its the norm to start teaching around purple belt. Simply due to the fact that almost all schools go by te ranking system of the IBJJF and the mandatory requirement of time to have put into BJJ before being promoted is 4 years assuming you actively compete as well as attend class at least 2 times a week.

    So according to these standards you must train as well as compete for minimum of 8 years to reach blackbelt level. Almost double the average amount of time to gain black belt in karate and approx 3x that to gain BB TKD. For fact checking me simply googling IBJJF ranking will give results.

    I’m only telling you this to give some evidence to the information I gave earlier. This is not an attempt show you why BJJ is better than this or that, though because of the competitive nature of the it as well as long belt time this is why people hold them to such high standards. Just like how many people who train in something like thaiboxing or sambo are naturally held at a higher standard now a days due to their skills constantly tested in pressure test and competition environment over let’s say karate or dare I say ninjutsu.

    Simple reason being that the full contact environments each system allows makes for students who actively prove their skills consistently through the most realistic means possible.

    Does this mean that the arts who aren’t held to that high of standard wont give you good combat skills. Absolutely not. However due to the damages commercial schools (mcDojos)have done to the community of martial artists.
    It has become far more likely to see people whom so a more traditional modern system like Karate, and know nothing of real self defense then you do of systems that specialize in full contact combat of one specific area.

    That combined with the marketing of the Gracies is the reason people hang on to the metaphorical junk of BJJ the way people due. Many people who are complete nubs on the subject have so little knowledge of the art other than what Royce and his family on Helio’s side say that they still go on about how BJJ is without any knowledge of the arts sticking points. Such as pot takedowns against good wrestlers, and over reliance in certain schools on sport technique over SD moves.

    I hope this has shed some light my thoughts of BJJ. As for Kano I expressed my issues with his ideas of self defense and ideas of street violence. My approach may have been more judgmental, but its hard to detect the context in which I’m saying something via bland text. Regardless my opinions of kanos ideas on te subject of street self defense remains the same

    I hope you yourself don’t assume I’m attempting to be disrespectful towards you.

    -Dan

  • 134 Shawn Belllan // Oct 22, 2012

    Dan that was a very well thought out post construed in a very mature and professional manner. If you would have taken that approach with the poster Kano I dont think we would be having this conversation. Just as you have your own biases and knee-jerk responses to people who you ascribe to a particular stereotype based upon your observations, you must realize that by siding with the BJJ nubs as you call them you are up against that stereotype, mainly the mindset that Jiu Jitsu is some snake oil cure for all your fighting ills BS. Kanos post was over the top in some respects but again he was responding to Carlo Diaz who was posting his personal info and daring people to come down to his Gracie school so he and his buddies could kick their asses. After a load of horse poop like that some ill-intentioned posturing can be expected.
    Heres how I see it. Double fault to Kano. Dont post your fighting resume online. No one can verify it. You say you choked out a Brizilian Jiu jutsu black belt at a Gracie academy school of which you were a student. Of course did you expect not to get a slew of backlash from the Gracie fans who consider this to be an impossibility? Of course from a rational point of view it could have happened. Gracie Jiu jutsu black belts are human and humans can bleed, break, and die. But even if you are telling the truth there is no way of verifying it any more than can anyone yourself included verify your self proclaimed street fighting record. The guy who you choked out nor anyone else in the academy would ever admit to it. Bad for business especially considering how your patron saints told you your skills were “undefeatable” which is a large part of the problem.
    Carlo diaz and Dan single faults to both of you for basically doing the same thing albeit to maybe a lesser degree. Carlo as I have already said making an online challenge is stupid. As also is claiming to have trained with the highest ranking members of the Helio side of the family. Honestly speaking if I ever meet a guy at a Gracie school who hadnt claimed to supposedly have trained with them Im not sure what Id say. In any case just like Kanos fight resume you really cant verify it and the simple fact that you train at a Gracie academy is moot. Lots of people do and if Randy Couture shows up at your door Im still putting my money on him.
    Dan posting a youtube video of yourself means nothing other than showing your participation in a generic sparring match. Your not fighting Sakaruba.
    If youll notice I have not made any claims about my fighting background or who and what I have trained in. In my experience to do so just invites ridicule on yourself and takes the level of discourse down to the level of poop slinging. If Carlos, Kano or anyone else wants to attack my character they will have to do so based on things they have created themselves and just illustrate themselves to be fools incapable of constructive discourse. I deal with facts and logic which was a hallmark of your last posting to me Dan kudos. Personally when dealing with someone like Kano or Carlos I prefer to employ the Socratic method meaning I generally humor them and asking pointed questions which eventually leads to them a. Making fools of themselves and having no one but the man in the mirror to blame. b. They retreat from all the chest pounding and actually get down to a halfway decent conversation in which they reveal the more positive aspects and what they are really trying to say. When you start the conversation with a blatant insult you arent leaving much room for movement and it immediately has devolved into the “my kung fu is better than your kung fu” arguments of which you previously expressed such disdain for. I dont want you to take offense at this Dan as you expressed your concern for the same in your last posting and I did not. I hope this back and forth has been beneficial to both of us. Cheers.

  • 135 SubHuman // Jan 4, 2013

    The bearded guy would have done the ultimate in self defense by not provoking the yellow shirt.

    I’ll just remark that beard did what he could according to his training and the situation.

    Luckily yellow shirt had no friends close during the encounter. And luckily yellow shirt had no skills against bear or he would have had an opening when he did escape beard’s first mount.

    Yellow shirt actually was the perfect opponent for a mild scenario of defense.

    In the end I shudder to call it defense because beard sort of egged it on.

  • 136 HD // Jan 12, 2013

    me think the only method of self-defense for the gunless, friendless, powerless, penniless Average Joe is running way. There’s no reason to stay in a fight that you will ultimately lose.

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