Comments on: Hagakure: The Way of the Warrior is Forgiveness http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/ Martial arts for personal development Wed, 08 Feb 2012 07:51:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: karl http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-11394 karl Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:38:11 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-11394 To Karl (the other karl), The inner american city is a battlefield you're right (god I hate this town sometimes), but that's the battle. This whole idea is not easy when you are dealing with people who seem to be nothing more than animals, THAT'S the fight, but it goes deeper than just saying "I forgive you" when someone does you wrong. You must also learn to speak your opponent's language, you have to learn to pick up on how to communicate with someone in an instant. Death is not just something physical, it is also of ideals. If you are truly not afraid of death, you will not be afraid of the death of your idealistic pride. To Karl (the other karl), The inner american city is a battlefield you’re right (god I hate this town sometimes), but that’s the battle. This whole idea is not easy when you are dealing with people who seem to be nothing more than animals, THAT’S the fight, but it goes deeper than just saying “I forgive you” when someone does you wrong. You must also learn to speak your opponent’s language, you have to learn to pick up on how to communicate with someone in an instant. Death is not just something physical, it is also of ideals. If you are truly not afraid of death, you will not be afraid of the death of your idealistic pride.

]]> By: Chris http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-5824 Chris Tue, 27 May 2008 07:16:23 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-5824 Thank you for this information. Thank you for this information.

]]> By: Dexter http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-5821 Dexter Mon, 26 May 2008 23:26:07 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-5821 Yeah, right, Chris! And Earth moves around the Sun. Yeah, right, Chris!
And Earth moves around the Sun.

]]> By: Karl http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-5163 Karl Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:25:20 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-5163 The code you propose is the antithesis of the culture of the American inner city today where every perceived slight, indiscretion or "disrespect" can escalate to lethal, often random, violence. And look how that's working out for both the participants and the bystanders. The code you propose is the antithesis of the culture of the American inner city today where every perceived slight, indiscretion or “disrespect” can escalate to lethal, often random, violence. And look how that’s working out for both the participants and the bystanders.

]]> By: taijiquestion http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4852 taijiquestion Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:08:42 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4852 Perhaps the remedy of "turning a blind eye" was the way they avoided having to slaughter each other constantly over life's ordinary mishaps of behavior? That too would fit what I know of Japan --- very selective, specific range of vision in human affairs. Perhaps the remedy of “turning a blind eye” was the way they avoided having to slaughter each other constantly over life’s ordinary mishaps of behavior? That too would fit what I know of Japan — very selective, specific range of vision in human affairs.

]]> By: taijiquestion http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4851 taijiquestion Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:05:36 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4851 However, my impression of traditional Japanese culture and history is that "forgiveness" was close to being a null concept. A person was expected to expunge the shame of even small failures and errors. Surrendering one's own life was a ready solution to the problem --- not looking for forgiveness --- which would have been insulting if offered and shameful beyond words if accepted??? Am I missing something here? However, my impression of traditional Japanese culture and history is that “forgiveness” was close to being a null concept. A person was expected to expunge the shame of even small failures and errors. Surrendering one’s own life was a ready solution to the problem — not looking for forgiveness — which would have been insulting if offered and shameful beyond words if accepted???

Am I missing something here?

]]> By: taijiquestion http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4850 taijiquestion Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:59:44 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4850 OK, I think I see where this is going. I haven't studied the martial code(s) in any depth, just enough to get some of the flavor. My own proclivities tend toward pacifism, though that just masks a duality. Look at how we tend to love fictional portrayals of "the peaceful man who became the innocent victim of random or planned violence --- maybe his family was harmed, that's a favorite --- and is *forced* to become a Rambo-like death machine". At the end he's the "last man standing" and we're all supposed to cheer this "harmless fantasy". I recall one pretty good - and pretty odious - Chuck Norris movie where everyone he loved and cared about got wasted; but Chuck offed all the baddies in the end, and the close of the movie was a voice-over from Chuck's character saying philosophically that come what may, "Hong Kong will always be THE place". For what? Horrific misery? The movie didn't speak to that after all the fights and deaths and loss. Our guy "won", that's all. But what I remembered today was an episode of the TV show "Kung Fu". (I am dimly aware that pondering these Hollywood products is not a substitute for studying Wu De and Bushido.) I don't recall the details of the plot line, and they actually don't matter. Someone had been wronged. Really, it was fairly black-and-white, a great wrong had been suffered in the past, and the perpetrator was finally in the cross-hairs. Kwai Chang Caine's role of course was conflict resolution, and for one hour we saw him drawn in to the conflict, and having to help as best he could. But right at the end, he prevented an act of vengence that certainly seemed to have some justice on its side. Protagonist, bewildered, distraught: "If I don't have the right to revenge, then who does?!!" Caine answers: "No one". OK, I think I see where this is going. I haven’t studied the martial code(s) in any depth, just enough to get some of the flavor. My own proclivities tend toward pacifism, though that just masks a duality.

Look at how we tend to love fictional portrayals of “the peaceful man who became the innocent victim of random or planned violence — maybe his family was harmed, that’s a favorite — and is *forced* to become a Rambo-like death machine”. At the end he’s the “last man standing” and we’re all supposed to cheer this “harmless fantasy”.

I recall one pretty good – and pretty odious – Chuck Norris movie where everyone he loved and cared about got wasted; but Chuck offed all the baddies in the end, and the close of the movie was a voice-over from Chuck’s character saying philosophically that come what may, “Hong Kong will always be THE place”.

For what? Horrific misery? The movie didn’t speak to that after all the fights and deaths and loss. Our guy “won”, that’s all.

But what I remembered today was an episode of the TV show “Kung Fu”. (I am dimly aware that pondering these Hollywood products is not a substitute for studying Wu De and Bushido.)

I don’t recall the details of the plot line, and they actually don’t matter. Someone had been wronged. Really, it was fairly black-and-white, a great wrong had been suffered in the past, and the perpetrator was finally in the cross-hairs.

Kwai Chang Caine’s role of course was conflict resolution, and for one hour we saw him drawn in to the conflict, and having to help as best he could.

But right at the end, he prevented an act of vengence that certainly seemed to have some justice on its side.

Protagonist, bewildered, distraught: “If I don’t have the right to revenge, then who does?!!”

Caine answers: “No one”.

]]> By: Chris http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4848 Chris Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:36:35 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4848 Thomas, "unforgivable" is a choice that every man makes for himself. Thomas, “unforgivable” is a choice that every man makes for himself.

]]> By: Hueina Su - Intensive Care for the Nurturer's Soul http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4845 Hueina Su - Intensive Care for the Nurturer's Soul Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:57:07 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4845 Chris: Great post! I agree that higher level martial artists should have greater compassion and tolerance (toward minor insults and attacks), provided that they have cultivated the spiritual side of martial arts as well as the fighting skills. I think they can control fears better, partially because they are mentally strong, and partially because of the confidence resulting from knowing they are capable of executing "forceful correction" if needed. Thank you for sharing this with the <a href="http://blog.beyondhorizoncoaching.com/2007/11/carnival-of-healing-111-pathway-to.html" rel="nofollow">Carnival of Healing #111 edition</a>, posted at Intensive Care for the Nurturer's Soul. Kind Regards, Hueina Chris:

Great post! I agree that higher level martial artists should have greater compassion and tolerance (toward minor insults and attacks), provided that they have cultivated the spiritual side of martial arts as well as the fighting skills. I think they can control fears better, partially because they are mentally strong, and partially because of the confidence resulting from knowing they are capable of executing “forceful correction” if needed.

Thank you for sharing this with the Carnival of Healing #111 edition, posted at Intensive Care for the Nurturer’s Soul.

Kind Regards,
Hueina

]]> By: Thomas http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4830 Thomas Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:31:21 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/hagakure-the-way-of-the-warrior-is-forgiveness/#comment-4830 In a real fight, you are right. You absolutely cannot afford to think about honor or fairness or anything, it seems, other than your own survival. However, with the way of budo, how are we to repay cruelty with kindness? Forgive the unforgivable? Should Brandon have apologized for his rudeness during the argument before the physical fight started? And how far are we supposed to take the "forceful correction," if we assume that the escalation will always continue? In a real fight, you are right. You absolutely cannot afford to think about honor or fairness or anything, it seems, other than your own survival. However, with the way of budo, how are we to repay cruelty with kindness? Forgive the unforgivable? Should Brandon have apologized for his rudeness during the argument before the physical fight started? And how far are we supposed to take the “forceful correction,” if we assume that the escalation will always continue?

]]>