Comments on: The Best of Tui Shou, The Worst of Tui Shou http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/ Martial arts for personal development Wed, 08 Feb 2012 07:51:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Josh Young http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10224 Josh Young Sat, 06 Jun 2009 15:03:08 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10224 Interesting how the three aspects mentioned were form, push hands and sparring. I'd add two more things to this list at the least, 1st would be 2 person drills, second would be energy issuing practice. Also for me sparring would be changed to freeplay, just to move away from the idea of competitiveness. Also in the subgroup of form I would put basic moves, form gives you a context for them but doesn't work them out the way a student needs to. For example take single whip, this is done with the left hand in the form but in practice you need to do with with both hands several thousand times to get it down right. I don't even think people should do forms until they learn the moves properly, but that is my opinion. Interesting how the three aspects mentioned were form, push hands and sparring.

I’d add two more things to this list at the least, 1st would be 2 person drills, second would be energy issuing practice.

Also for me sparring would be changed to freeplay, just to move away from the idea of competitiveness.

Also in the subgroup of form I would put basic moves, form gives you a context for them but doesn’t work them out the way a student needs to. For example take single whip, this is done with the left hand in the form but in practice you need to do with with both hands several thousand times to get it down right.

I don’t even think people should do forms until they learn the moves properly, but that is my opinion.

]]> By: Chris http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10219 Chris Sat, 06 Jun 2009 07:11:02 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10219 If they were trying to <a href="http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/push-hands-and-competition/" rel="nofollow">apply Taiji principles in push hands practice</a>, and not quite succeeding due to a lack of coordination or experience, then I wouldn't have chosen this as an example. The problem is an absence of principle--for which there can be no substitute. If they were trying to apply Taiji principles in push hands practice, and not quite succeeding due to a lack of coordination or experience, then I wouldn’t have chosen this as an example. The problem is an absence of principle–for which there can be no substitute.

]]> By: another neijia http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10217 another neijia Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:51:25 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10217 Ah I think I'm following you now. I think I was assuming those students had barely just started so when you say: "Assume they are doing, more or less, what they have been taught." I guess I assumed they must have been taught very little so wasn't quite following you. Maybe getting pushed around by the instructor a lot is instructive in the sense that they will wonder why that is, then start practicing whole body coordination more. I am thinking they need a little more work first and this push hands exercise, though not even moving step, etc., is just too advanced for them at the time of filming. "Now, what do you think they are trying to accomplish, and if they succeeded, would you call it good Taiji?" Ha, no, they can't get there from here. I'd say go back a step or two. Come back to free push hands later. If I were in their shoes, I'd hope someone could convince me to do more basic training first. Ah I think I’m following you now. I think I was assuming those students had barely just started so when you say:

“Assume they are doing, more or less, what they have been taught.”

I guess I assumed they must have been taught very little so wasn’t quite following you. Maybe getting pushed around by the instructor a lot is instructive in the sense that they will wonder why that is, then start practicing whole body coordination more. I am thinking they need a little more work first and this push hands exercise, though not even moving step, etc., is just too advanced for them at the time of filming.

“Now, what do you think they are trying to accomplish, and if they succeeded, would you call it good Taiji?”

Ha, no, they can’t get there from here. I’d say go back a step or two. Come back to free push hands later. If I were in their shoes, I’d hope someone could convince me to do more basic training first.

]]> By: Chris http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10215 Chris Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:09:20 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10215 another neijia, My complaint is not with this video specifically, but with "push hands" when practiced in the manner shown in the video. Scott has already identified some problems from that perspective, and I agree with most of his observations. I'll ask you to look at the students, rather than the teacher. Assume they are doing, more or less, what they have been taught. Now, what do you think they are trying to accomplish, and if they succeeded, would you call it good Taiji? Have you ever seen a solo Taiji form executed as carelessly and desperately as this rou shou? If not, why not? IMHO, if a Taiji student approaches conflict with the attitude embodied here--nevermind if they call it "harmony of yin and yang"--they will have no advantage whatsoever. another neijia,
My complaint is not with this video specifically, but with “push hands” when practiced in the manner shown in the video. Scott has already identified some problems from that perspective, and I agree with most of his observations.

I’ll ask you to look at the students, rather than the teacher. Assume they are doing, more or less, what they have been taught. Now, what do you think they are trying to accomplish, and if they succeeded, would you call it good Taiji?

Have you ever seen a solo Taiji form executed as carelessly and desperately as this rou shou? If not, why not?

IMHO, if a Taiji student approaches conflict with the attitude embodied here–nevermind if they call it “harmony of yin and yang”–they will have no advantage whatsoever.

]]> By: another neijia http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10213 another neijia Fri, 05 Jun 2009 23:12:11 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10213 I see what you're saying about clinching, range, etc., but I failed to see the source of the complaints with the video, albeit I only watched 3 minutes. It looked like he usually took yang energy in, absorbing with yin and had it come back out as yang. Applications might not be in this practice exercise that they're doing at the time but the 10,000 things of which those are a part come out of the fundamental yin/yang change anyway. It's more important to get this changing down under some constraints first. Sort of like doing positional sparring in bjj without the qin na. Can't do the basics, it is pointless to talk about the stuff beyond that. Even getting beyond, I'd still want to work mainly the basics. I see what you’re saying about clinching, range, etc., but I failed to see the source of the complaints with the video, albeit I only watched 3 minutes. It looked like he usually took yang energy in, absorbing with yin and had it come back out as yang. Applications might not be in this practice exercise that they’re doing at the time but the 10,000 things of which those are a part come out of the fundamental yin/yang change anyway. It’s more important to get this changing down under some constraints first. Sort of like doing positional sparring in bjj without the qin na. Can’t do the basics, it is pointless to talk about the stuff beyond that. Even getting beyond, I’d still want to work mainly the basics.

]]> By: Fine Motor Control | Weakness With a Twist http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10212 Fine Motor Control | Weakness With a Twist Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:15:48 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10212 [...] is a different story.  You don’t really need sensitivity when you are striking. This video from Martial Development shows the problem…this is a totally useless form of [...] [...] is a different story.  You don’t really need sensitivity when you are striking. This video from Martial Development shows the problem…this is a totally useless form of [...]

]]> By: Josh Young http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10192 Josh Young Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:26:06 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10192 Ok if it is for fun I get it. I like fun. Sometimes I do push hands for 2 hours at a time with my friend. It is not often that competitive, but I have been punched in the throat by him and I have hit him in the temple too, never on purpose and we are both fine, but it can get very intense. We enjoy it and it is a good combination of competition and cooperation. Since we also practice different styles it allows us to practice using our own style against another in semi controlled setting. I have a long way to go before I am done developing my skill though. Ok if it is for fun I get it.
I like fun.

Sometimes I do push hands for 2 hours at a time with my friend.
It is not often that competitive, but I have been punched in the throat by him and I have hit him in the temple too, never on purpose and we are both fine, but it can get very intense. We enjoy it and it is a good combination of competition and cooperation. Since we also practice different styles it allows us to practice using our own style against another in semi controlled setting.

I have a long way to go before I am done developing my skill though.

]]> By: Wim http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10190 Wim Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:35:36 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10190 @ Josh: "Can you explain to me what the point is in competition push hands?" Having fun? Sorry, couldn't resist. :-) Wim @ Josh: “Can you explain to me what the point is in competition push hands?”

Having fun?

Sorry, couldn’t resist. :-)

Wim

]]> By: Scott http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10189 Scott Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:26:16 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10189 Yeah, Watching that video nearly turned my stomach. I got some relief though when the big balding guy leaning in, nearly beats him several times (starting around 2:30). But it's a perfect example of what not to do! So what a wonderful learning experience! Don't defend the middle, don't root, don't lean, do use your entire arm for contact, do keep turning, don't use a fingertip jab to "win" after you have clearly lost, and for heavens sakes don't put your palms on your opponents forearms. Yeah,
Watching that video nearly turned my stomach. I got some relief though when the big balding guy leaning in, nearly beats him several times (starting around 2:30).
But it’s a perfect example of what not to do! So what a wonderful learning experience!
Don’t defend the middle, don’t root, don’t lean, do use your entire arm for contact, do keep turning, don’t use a fingertip jab to “win” after you have clearly lost, and for heavens sakes don’t put your palms on your opponents forearms.

]]> By: tannage the taijiquan dude http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/best-worst-of-tui-shou/#comment-10187 tannage the taijiquan dude Mon, 01 Jun 2009 10:55:12 +0000 http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/?p=1214#comment-10187 That's a great post. Taiji push hands is a bridge between form and sparring, and an avenue to train skills without the pressure of someone trying to knock your block off. Also push-hands is a cooperative drill, whereas sparring is a non-cooperative endeavour, so you can develop skills and reactions in an environment that allows you to explore which is much much more conducive to learning than having to guard all the time. That’s a great post. Taiji push hands is a bridge between form and sparring, and an avenue to train skills without the pressure of someone trying to knock your block off.

Also push-hands is a cooperative drill, whereas sparring is a non-cooperative endeavour, so you can develop skills and reactions in an environment that allows you to explore which is much much more conducive to learning than having to guard all the time.

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